Did something eat these?

JoshP12

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Snapped some more photos. And I’m wondering if potassium is in excess and when I say excess I mean that it is extremely out of proportion to everything else.

look at this Ludwigia repens:


1594239879231.jpeg

The leaves are actually good and tough but they are wavy. Could the potassium be inhibiting the uptake of calcium?
Look at this rotala:
1594240014449.jpeg

One out of every 10 looks like this - I also noticed it does this and spurts our several healthy new shoots .

BUT:

1594240071046.jpeg

You can see in the centre there that two of the side shots have also started to crunch but none of the others have.

I thought the rotala just did this in response to sending off side shoots - not the other way round.

I mentioned that my water changes adds at least 30 ppm of potassium to my tank.

I dose magnesium daily maybe 2 ish ppm. So it makes sense that calcium would be the lower and that is the deficiency that is shown?

hmmm ... I think removing my mineralization to tap water (which increases KH (about 2 degrees) GH (15 calcium, 5 magnesium) potassium (about 30ppm) and just using that water for water change might be a good idea.

in many ways, this idea is grounded in the fact that we can apply Mulder’s chart to aquatic plants and that my case is very extreme.

Leave co2/daily dose of ferts/light constant and just change my water change water.

I’d love and appreciate some guidance here.

Oh:

here is pogo
1594243534512.jpeg

Looks great.

Thought: Ludwigia and rotala are easy plants - does easy mean that they “require” less nutrients, so having such excess then they are used to will cause odd behaviours?
 

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JoshP12

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To give a bottom line of potential next step it is here:

1) Stop mineralizing my water change water with 15ppm of Calcium and 5 ppm of magnesium and about 1 -2 degrees of carbonate hardness which gives me 35 ppm of potassium (all of this is in my water change bucket which would reduce the concentration in the display tank).

This would mean my water change water (and in my tank) would have 7.9 ppm of calcium and 2.1 ppm of magnesium via the water report. I have root tabs homemade sprinkled in tropica soil to give it some oomph which do have minerals in them. Below my tropica powder is fluorite. The rotala on the right is just planted in sand.

2) OPTION: mix a new macro batch with only KNO3 and KH2PO4 and cease dosing all magnesium (will 2.1 ppm in the water column + my substrate ride me out the week?). OR leave my macro solution as is and dose 2ppm of magnesium daily -- will this cause my magnesium to build up too much over the week in relation to the rest?

To do this, I would do a massive fill while removing water in hopes of altering the water chemistry to our target as much as I could. My thoughts say that this sudden change will be harder on the plants and livestock (yet still ok) BUT I will be able to see the results better than a gradual 20% daily -- please weigh in if you think all at once is a bad idea or not (my tank water "matches" the conditions of my old water change water).

I think stripping my tap water and macro solution of mg and ca will allow me to truly know if I need magnesium dosed or not and perhaps this is the only way to know?

Unearthing an old thread: https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/new-growth-but-middle-dying.60315/ <-- is the reason that I started dosing Mg in the first place -- and even the reason I switched to EI.

So, all this to say, could it have been potassium excess all along?

Josh

EDIT: an alternate option for filling is as follows ... I have 40 gallons of water already remineralized, dechlorinated and ready to be pumped in. I can turn on my tap that fills the bucket, while I am filling the tank and emptying all at the same time and basically let this run for a while until my TDS drops to around 90 (my tap water is 80). I would probably dechlorinate the entire tank at the end or alternatively, drain half into tank - stop - fill up the bucket, dechlorinate - repeat with half - and continue and so on until the desired TDS.
 
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Witcher

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Your erectus looks perfect, mine looks much worse (but it's extremely crammed), BTW this is one of my favorite indicator plants for Fe deficiency - if it's happy and tips are always green other plants are happy too.
 

JoshP12

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Your erectus looks perfect, mine looks much worse (but it's extremely crammed), BTW this is one of my favorite indicator plants for Fe deficiency - if it's happy and tips are always green other plants are happy too.

Thank you for sharing that.

So then, despite my Ludwigia being wavy and Rotala crunching up, they are healthy?

A thought that I had not had was whether or not this massive change to water chemistry that I mention would negatively impact my other plants (Crypts, s. repens, pogo, anubias, buce ... I can add shots of their current as well, if it will help).

Or is as @dw1305 said that RR is a calcifuge so it is MORE sensitive than Pogo. Erectus to such water chemistry. Is ludwigia repens also a califuge?

Side thought: does anyone growing these plants in very hard water, simply up their dosage of potassium to compensate? In other words, alternative to my suggestion, I think I could up my Mg and Ca to offset the potassium ... but I am not going to do that (even in the pursuit of learning, haha) - it would give me this extremely artificial environment (ironic isn't it).

Josh
 

Witcher

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My thoughts say that this sudden change will be harder on the plants and livestock (yet still ok) BUT I will be able to see the results better than a gradual 20% daily
This is quite interesting one. What about changing down 20-30% weekly and taking daily notes? Your plants will need to change their enzymes anyway but it will give you more time for observation. Regarding curling leaves I'm nearly sure it's too much of K in relation to Mg/Ca - I slowly went down from approx 12-15ppm of K to 5ppm and finally my l. inclinata shows straightened, nearly perfect new leaves - and surprisingly pinnatifida doesn't shows any K deficiencies (yet).
 

JoshP12

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This is quite interesting one. What about changing down 20-30% weekly and taking daily notes? Your plants will need to change their enzymes anyway but it will give you more time for observation. Regarding curling leaves I'm nearly sure it's too much of K in relation to Mg/Ca - I slowly went down from approx 12-15ppm of K to 5ppm and finally my l. inclinata shows straightened, nearly perfect new leaves - and surprisingly pinnatifida doesn't shows any K deficiencies (yet).


With my EI dosing the 20-30% weekly will overload me on many things I think - unless you meant daily? Aside from blowing up my dosing regime entirely and moving towards a more liquid (har har) and fluid (har har) dosing (which I want to move to eventually) - I don't think the dilution will be "enough" <-- well it would be actually if I use the pure tap? <-- edit :).

Also, are you assuming completely ceasing remineralizing my water and using pure tap?

Josh
 

Witcher

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With my EI dosing the 20-30% weekly will overload me on many things I think - unless you meant daily?
Definitely weekly no matter if you're dosing EI, x4 EI, lean dosing, starving (my preferred one haha) PPS, precise dosng etc.
Also, are you assuming completely ceasing remineralizing my water and using pure tap?
It depends what's in your tap bro. I like the idea of cutting tap with RO but unfortunately mixture of N and water hardness in my tap is rather "NO" with regards to mixing - plus adding other nutrients etc.
 

alto

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Tropica showtank 12 weeks: photage of Rotala 'green'show the formerly overshaded branches, that are left after a massive trimming, just a day after this trimming.
Jinx :lol:

this is exactly what I was going to say about how Rotala ‘green’ behaves
- if you want it always looking like in that first photo, either trim in thirds (as recommended by Takashi Amano in early Aquajournal monthly column ... this is obviously only practical for a home tank) or replant some of the tops to maintain The Look
(if replanting tops I’d also suggest completely cutting down some of the bases to substrate level)

Rotala “Green” is one of my all time favourite plants, though unfortunately it doesn’t sell well in local shops when it comes in :confused:
 

JoshP12

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It depends what's in your tap bro. I like the idea of cutting tap with RO but unfortunately mixture of N and water hardness in my tap is rather "NO" with regards to mixing - plus adding other nutrients etc.

I mentioned the tap parameters up top!
 

rebel

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It is really difficult to diagnose most deficiency symptoms, iron (Fe), and to a lesser degree nitrogen (N), are possible and you can discount CO2 if you use a a floating plant, but after that you are struggling.
Nuggets of gold! :cigar:
 

soham

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As allways: it help understanding what you see, if you know the facts and history behind ;).
Tropica showtank 8 weeks: photage of Rotala 'green'show a fully in-grown group at its peak, carefully maintained up to photage and left untouched for a few days. All visible branches exposed to full light. This is why focus is more on Rotala'green'. Video-material for "plant profile" of Rotala 'green' was done a few days later. The day after video for "plant profile" the groups were all heavily trimmed.
Tropica showtank 12 weeks: photage of Rotala 'green'show the formerly overshaded branches, that are left after a massive trimming, just a day after this trimming. This is why focus is not on Rotala 'green'in this photage. After another week (=week 13) the groups of Rotala 'green' all had the look as in week 8.
A limited amount of plant-mass (specific species) in the tank have been gently removed and exchanged for other species. No routines or parametres have changed in the show-tank.
- so the difference can be explained by quality/amount of flow and light and consequenses of these, in this case.
I went back to see the videos carefully. In the plant profile video of Rotala green, do you think those plants are at their best? 45 seconds into the video, notice how curled up the leaves are. Then at 10 week update, plants are already starting to suffer. I should say plant were not doing well even before the rescaping/trimming was done. At 12 weeks update, the plants on the left side of the whole bunch were no way under continuous shadow. After that Tropica must have changed something or nutrient levels reached the optimum level and the plants resumed proper growth. Green Rotala leaves curling up and staying short is no way a sign of optimum growth. In Tropica's videos, red Ludwigia behaves in the same way. Curling up. I even commented in that video and they didn't reply. Here are 2 pictures of my old tank-

The group from the second left is green Rotala, notice how short and unhealthy looking leaves are. Those are ofcourse growing, but not the best. Tropia's plants in those 2 videos look similar to this.
32170012_10216428206206116_3386039567764160512_n.jpg


Here is the same tank after lowering hardness and nutrient levels.

35433398_10216703398685756_3261986481165565952_o (1).jpg


Co2 and flow was not the issue and is usually not the cause of Rotala stunting/deformities. Rotala is a weed at proper water parameters. By the way, I guess I am deviating too much from the main concern of the post.
 

JoshP12

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Rotala is a weed at proper water parameters. By the way, I guess I am deviating too much from the main concern of the post.

I am not sure that you are. I think the notion of "proper" needs to be explored.

In particular, here is my thought:

Each plant is unique and as such has a unique set of cation-competition parameters ("they have their own Mulder's chart"); these are not absolute - as with anything in nature, they can withstand a wide variety - of conditions ... but not straying too far. As a result, ensuring that concentrations of nutrients follow within the threshold of the parameters, we should be able to grow any plant in any conditions, while obeying the unique set of cation-competition parameters.


Aside: The Pogo is flourishing, the Rotala/ludwigia are odd. Also, my anubias is curly too and at times my buce has odd curly parts. Note that it is never every leaf.

The rotala below has interveinal chlorosis. So does my java fern - yet it is producing offspring. This indicates magnesium or iron. Meanwhile, the pogo is healthy as can be. So are the crypts and s. repens. So what is it? If I up the magnesium and/or iron to bring my proportions back with my current potassium, it may work. Alternatively as @Witcher brought up is to reduce potassium.

1594313430960.png


The root of the problem is that my potassium is coming from my remineralization - and lots of it. So I stop remineralizing and see what happens. If I do that however, my original addition of magnesium may be unneeded.

I am going to go ahead and do the water parameter switch to "softer" water INSTEAD of making my water "harder"/throwing in more nutrients AND cease dosing magnesium daily. Whether I do this all at once or over several weeks, I am undecided.

My hopes is that these conditions are still within the range of my pogo/s. repens/crypts and they show no adverse effects due to removing ample Calcium/Magnesium/Potassium.

My water parameters should be:
Ca: 7.9
Mg: 2.1
K: 2/day ... none adding on water change.

I am rather curious whether or not I will see a potassium deficiency (which will be way worse than some crunching from potassium excess) or a magnesium deficiency.

In the perfect world, everything will adapt, look healthier, and I will no longer need to dose magnesium daily and no longer need to remineralize my water :).

EDIT: A smarter idea may be reduce my remineralization of potassium bicarbonate and see what happens first :p. I just feel that my daily addition of magnesium in conjunction with this makes it messy and it may be easier to go the other way - strip it completely knowing my base, then continue.

Josh
 
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JoshP12

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All done! I went for it! TDS at 77. This was more stressful on me than my fish 🤣 ... amanos, neons and otto cats came out to play in the current. I probably turned over the water 3 times (over a few hours )? First batch was TDS 190 ish.

Doser has no mg anymore either (aside from a tiny bit in the line from yesterday but that's whatever).

Now, we wait and watch :cigar:. I'll update it in a week.

Josh
 

JoshP12

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Ok, ok, I know that I said 1 week, but ... :oops::oops:.

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The Rotala changed overnight - it has NEVER looked like this at lights on (these photos were from lights on 10 minutes after).

Pogo, I am talking to you, you better adapt just fine :bored: ... he is normally "more" open at lights on. But by the time I got to post this, he is opening (public shaming on a forum is helping ;)).

Well, let's see what happens.

I am debating trimming these rotala bushes both the left and right all to the same height (which is something I have never done) and then letting them regrow in these conditions so that we can see. Should I wait to trim?

Josh
 

soham

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Ok, ok, I know that I said 1 week, but ... :oops::oops:.

View attachment 151872
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View attachment 151874
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View attachment 151876

The Rotala changed overnight - it has NEVER looked like this at lights on (these photos were from lights on 10 minutes after).

Pogo, I am talking to you, you better adapt just fine :bored: ... he is normally "more" open at lights on. But by the time I got to post this, he is opening (public shaming on a forum is helping ;)).

Well, let's see what happens.

I am debating trimming these rotala bushes both the left and right all to the same height (which is something I have never done) and then letting them regrow in these conditions so that we can see. Should I wait to trim?

Josh

Excellent. You do not need to add anymore calcium magnesium to your water if your water already have 8 and 2 ppm respectively. At recommended level, almost every very brand of fertilizer adds no more than 1 ppm of magnesium to the tank per week.

Keep your the low regime of potassium. Also do not add more than 5-7 ppm of nitrate per week considering ou have fish in your tank plus the substrate. Add about 0.5-0.6 ppm of phpsphate and NO more than 0.1 ppm of trace. How are you adding potassium? Via KNO3 and K2CO3/K2SO4?

As I said before, Rotala responds very fast to water parameter changes.
 

soham

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Aside: The Pogo is flourishing, the Rotala/ludwigia are odd. Also, my anubias is curly too and at times my buce has odd curly parts. Note that it is never every leaf.
Pogostemon produces way more dense and elaborate root system compared to Rotala. In my experience, Pogo takes some time to first establish it's root system and then starts to grow. Rotala takes off immediately. This might explain why Pogo does better on the face of changing water parameters as it relies more on root feeding. This is just my guess, could be wrong.
 

JoshP12

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Excellent. You do not need to add anymore calcium magnesium to your water if your water already have 8 and 2 ppm respectively. At recommended level, almost every very brand of fertilizer adds no more than 1 ppm of magnesium to the tank per week.

Interesting! That is nice to hear. I'll keep an eye.

Keep your the low regime of potassium. Also do not add more than 5-7 ppm of nitrate per week considering ou have fish in your tank plus the substrate. Add about 0.5-0.6 ppm of phpsphate and NO more than 0.1 ppm of trace. How are you adding potassium? Via KNO3 and K2CO3/K2SO4?

My potassium is coming from KNO3 and KH2PO4.

I am still dosing EI daily for KNO3 and KH3PO4 for macros which is giving me 2 ppm of potassium /day.

This dose puts me a .6 phosphate daily too.

My daily trace has .1 ppm of iron (it is the EI micro) coming from Plantex CSM+B.

I was rather hastey with my water chemistry shift but I think I should wait just a little bit before I drop my ferts. I have the macro solution mixed at EI ratio.

N: P :K = 3: .6: 2 ... 21: 4.2: 14 ... so I think 1/3 EI is about right where you are suggesting with much less trace. Though I will probably have to split solutions.

I'll keep the thread updated over the next few days. Thanks Soham!

Josh
 

JoshP12

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Side question:

Anyone know what this goo is (photo attached) on the buce flower.

When I left for a few days before this thread was revived, I had a couple of these goo on an old dying buce. I’ve just removed it and attributed it to a build up of organics or something. Maybe it’s bacteria?

Josh
 

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