Did something eat these?

JoshP12

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Hi all,Separate iron.

cheers Darrel
Set ‘er up! Let’s see in a bit what those new leaves look like. I started with an extra .1 (however, it may be more like .05 due to solubility and pH).

If I continue seeing the paleness, just up the iron dose?

(I am looking for a different chelate but I had bought some of this EDTA before so may as well use it in the interim).

Josh
 

Witcher

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Also, will phosphate concentration in water column interfere with availability? In other words, if my phosphates are high, will I need a higher iron dose to compensate?
Hi Josh,

I'd rather choose different, stronger Fe chelate in lower quantities than increasing weak form of Fe.

Here is my 1/3 weekly dose of Fe (coming from mix of gluconate and Profito which is very likely Fe gluconate as well) mixed with 1/3 weekly dose of PO4, and left for more than 4 weeks. What you see is precipitated Iron Phosphate covered with algae (for first 10-15 days these flocks were greyish).

20200801_122655.jpg


And here is the same dose, but only Fe EDDHA was used as a source of Iron - no precipitation for 4 weeks or so. The darker area in the middle is a shadow, nothing more.
20200801_123841.jpg


In both I've applied 0.05Fe and 2.5 ppm of PO4 (1/3 weekly dose calculated for my tank - 240l) - so in the glass amounts were obviously massive.
 

JoshP12

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Hi Josh,

I'd rather choose different, stronger Fe chelate in lower quantities than increasing weak form of Fe.

Here is my 1/3 weekly dose of Fe (coming from mix of gluconate and Profito which is very likely Fe gluconate as well) mixed with 1/3 weekly dose of PO4, and left for more than 4 weeks. What you see is precipitated Iron Phosphate covered with algae (for first 10-15 days these flocks were greyish).

View attachment 152677

And here is the same dose, but only Fe EDDHA was used as a source of Iron - no precipitation for 4 weeks or so. The darker area in the middle is a shadow, nothing more.
View attachment 152678

In both I've applied 0.05Fe and 2.5 ppm of PO4 (1/3 weekly dose calculated for my tank - 240l) - so in the glass amounts were obviously massive.
Wow. Thank you so much for sharing. I just have to find out where to get a different chelate here in Canada.

Iron is iron is iron is iron, right? Doesn’t matter where I get it from?
 

Witcher

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Iron is iron is iron is iron, right? Doesn’t matter where I get it from?
Don't think it matters, I think Fe EDDHA (6 or 7%) is widely available in Canada, other forms of Fe too.

This is now my preferred form of Fe due to its strength of chelation (it's stable between 4-9pH). Previously I was using Fe gluconate for quite long time but as I can see at high doses of PO4 it 's quite unstable (noticeable precipitation occurred within 12 hours or so). But many sources say Fe gluconate is in the form which plants can uptake much easier than chelates so probably it's a matter of balance between PO4 and Fe plus suitable acidity of the water.
 

JoshP12

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Don't think it matters, I think Fe EDDHA (6 or 7%) is widely available in Canada, other forms of Fe too.

This is now my preferred form of Fe due to its strength of chelation (it's stable between 4-9pH). Previously I was using Fe gluconate for quite long time but as I can see at high doses of PO4 it 's quite unstable (noticeable precipitation occurred within 12 hours or so). But many sources say Fe gluconate is in the form which plants can uptake much easier than chelates so probably it's a matter of balance between PO4 and Fe plus suitable acidity of the water.
I think you are right ... that elusive phosphate 😊.

When you dose iron, if the water turns tinted and then slowly clears is it likely that the plants are taking up all the iron or is it just taking time for it react with everything else?

@dw1305, is the duckweed index fast enough to respond to a 1 day change? I attached today’s image; can we tell yet?

Also, I saw a neat thing today, although I think it’s too early to tell, I attached the photo of the rotala. Does it look a bit greener (the new leaves there) ? I’ll watch again tomorrow and update the photos.

Thanks again for the help.

Josh
 

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dw1305

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Hi all,
@dw1305, is the duckweed index fast enough to respond to a 1 day change?
Yes for nitrogen (N) you get a very quick greening. In the case of iron (Fe) you don't, because it is only new leaves that will be greener. Even with Duckweed (Lemna minor) it is going to take several days before new leaves are produced.

cheers Darrel
 

JoshP12

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Hi all, Yes for nitrogen (N) you get a very quick greening. In the case of iron (Fe) you don't, because it is only new leaves that will be greener. Even with Duckweed (Lemna minor) it is going to take several days before new leaves are produced.

cheers Darrel
Ahh! Mobile nutrient will fix quick - got it!

Can we say that my NPK is good from those photos? The reason I am asking, is can we use that info to rule out nutrient deficiencies to my rotala that have old leaves that look deficient - we can then attribute the “melt/move of nutrients” to stress from the massive rescale/replant/ammonia spike etc?

Josh
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
Ahh! Mobile nutrient will fix quick - got it!
Yes they will, and deficiencies will show on older leaves because the plant can shuffle these elements to the photosynthetic tissue that is receiving the most PAR.
Can we say that my NPK is good from those photos?
I can't say either way. Iron (Fe) is an easy one, because it is only really manganese (Mn) and iron that are <"immobile within the plant">, and likely to be deficient.

Once you are onto the mobile nutrients it becomes a <"lot more difficult">, because there are more of them, and they are much bigger "players" in plant growth. We know we need all <"fourteen essential mineral elements">, and that any-one of them can be limiting for plant growth.

cheers Darrel
 

JoshP12

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Darrel (@dw1305), it's too much for me :p.

You look at your tank, you notice an iron deficiency --> the plant can't get the iron that you pour in/provide as a root tab --> why?
1) is something blocking it within the leaf?
2) is something bonding to the iron? ... maybe the little precipitate will fall down to the substrate where, if I am lucky, it will nuzzle itself into the dirt and hopefully a little root will sneak up to it and some reducing bacteria will spawn to help that iron be accessible by the plant (or a little algae will spawn on it like in @Witcher's experiment ... or none of this will happen.
3) is there not enough iron?
... add all the other million things.

A mobile nutrient:
1) was the original leaf deficient and so the plant decides to move the nutrients to the newer more healthy leaves because it takes less energy?
2) maybe that particular area had poor nutrient distribution ... it's buddy shows no sign of dying.
3) is the plant getting rid of it's leaf nutrients because those leaf aren't ideal for the particular "new" area
... add all the other million +1 things.

I'm throwin' in the towel!

Is your leaf yellowish because it is degenerating chloroplast, or did it not have the nutrients to synthesize chlorophyll so it didn't even have the chance to degenerate itself.

Needless to say, I have had a very calm day where I have abandoned all hope of creating implications and have temporarily embraced a laissez-faire approach :cigar:.

That was short lived.

I may not be able to get Fe-EDDHA (for now) - still trying.

If I see no improvements in the next bit,
1) do I lean my phosphates/EI dose?
2) do I up my EDTA iron, until I get EDDHA?
3) just let everything grow pale?

Just keep trying, I suppose.

Josh
 
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dw1305

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Hi all,
You look at your tank, you notice an iron deficiency --> the plant can't get the iron that you pour in/provide as a root tab --> why?
It is showing on the Lemna, which is reliant on available iron (as Fe++(+)) in the water column.
2) is something bonding to the iron? ... maybe the little precipitate will fall down to the substrate where, if I am lucky, it will nuzzle itself into the dirt and hopefully a little root will sneak up to it and some reducing bacteria will spawn to help that iron be accessible by the plant (or a little algae will spawn on it like in @Witcher's experiment ... or none of this will happen.
The substrate may have areas where iron ions become available, but for the plant to be able to make use of that iron, it needs to be <"within the zone of fluctuating REDOX"> in <"the rhizosphere">.
is the plant getting rid of it's leaf nutrients because those leaf aren't ideal for the particular "new" area
Plants are making "decisions" all the time about which leaves to keep, where to grow new leaves, how to align their leaves etc.
do I up my EDTA iron, until I get EDDHA?
Try that for the moment, keep looking at the new leaves on the Lemna, and try yo match their value against the leaf colour chart.



cheers Darrel
 

JoshP12

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Hi Josh,

I'd rather choose different, stronger Fe chelate in lower quantities than increasing weak form of Fe.

Here is my 1/3 weekly dose of Fe (coming from mix of gluconate and Profito which is very likely Fe gluconate as well) mixed with 1/3 weekly dose of PO4, and left for more than 4 weeks. What you see is precipitated Iron Phosphate covered with algae (for first 10-15 days these flocks were greyish).

View attachment 152677

And here is the same dose, but only Fe EDDHA was used as a source of Iron - no precipitation for 4 weeks or so. The darker area in the middle is a shadow, nothing more.
View attachment 152678

In both I've applied 0.05Fe and 2.5 ppm of PO4 (1/3 weekly dose calculated for my tank - 240l) - so in the glass amounts were obviously massive.
Hi Witcher!

What was the pH of the water you used in this experiment?

Josh
 

Witcher

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Hi Witcher!

What was the pH of the water you used in this experiment?

Josh
6-ish initially tending to 7.0-7.5-ish after few weeks - and I'm surprised, was expecting something around 8-ish in the end, but I have quite lots of tannin, acetates and other stuff to keep relatively high acidity. Ph can be quite deceptive as an unit of measure, it can behave in quite surprising way around the day, but water can still be acidic generally (or alkaline). I've stopped to look at pH (as a certain unit) as an important information about my water conditions.
 

JoshP12

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Hi all!

Summary: The deficiency ended up being magnesium.

The details:

I was dosing .1 ppm iron a day for several days (watching the Lemna) and it wasn't changing; I then did a water change and then next day suddenly there was a noticeable flush of green in my Pogo, anubias, the color of rotala deepened, and the Lemna changed. I did not know whether it was that I had flushed the system, and then that morning dose of iron was more accessible or that my water change had replenished the Ca and Mg. I decided to dose 2 more ppm of Mg (pushing me up to 4ppm Mg and 9 Ca) and then I left; when I came back, the tank looked better. This whole time, I was still dosing iron. I did another water change, and took a chance that it was magnesium (as the flush of green indicated mobility - at least that was my rationale); I ceased the iron dose - and just did the magnesium. Things are looking great!

As an aside, on about day 3/4 I had a minor flush of GSA which indicated that perhaps they were also iron deficient ... however, assuming that Low CO2/phosphate are the cause of GSA and I did not change my CO2 (and had "no visible" GSA before) - but did change phosphate availability (due to the iron forming precipitate when the chelate breaks), it may be that the flush of GSA was due to low phosphate as a result of the iron. It really doesn't matter though.

The bottom line is that the GSA has stopped breaking out and the plants look healthy :).

Thanks for everyone's help with this!

Now that the tank is healthy (thanks to EI and the missing piece of Mg), I am going to start manipulating ferts to see what happens next.

Josh
 

JoshP12

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Thanks to EI and the missing piece of Mg.
That's actually not true at all - it is thanks to everyone on UKAPS who has helped me - including previous posts of knowledge. :)

From a dry salt perspective, the method helped - this is what I meant.

Josh
 

JoshP12

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Hi Josh,

Could you please post an updated picture of the tank and current dosing regime.

Regards,
Soham
Of course!

I focused so much on the Rotala that I didn't take many pictures of much else. But I have some shots from yesterday (or maybe from within the past few days - and in different lights).

1597860866032.png

1597860902772.png

1597860928609.png

1597860952897.png

1597860966484.png

1597860981769.png

1597861075600.png


Full dosing:
1) In the evening:
3 ppm NO3
.6 ppm PO4
.7 ppm Mg

All via potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate, Epsom salt, respectively.

2) In the AM at lights on
Plantex CSM + B chelated EDTA using iron as a proxy of .1 ppm.

For ease, I tend to water change in the evening and I have held once a week for the past bit. Or if I leave for a few days and return, I water change before I leave and when I return.

Photoperiod: 9 hours with a 30 minute ramp at each end. AI Prime HD Freshwater on at 100% (obviously not during the ramp time) - I have no clue on the PAR.

The Rotala still aren't lean, lean, but I like 'em :). I am going to lean out my dosing eventually - more for learning rather than anything else, but just enjoying looking at the tank for now.

EDIT: My water has about 9 ppm Ca and 2 ppm Mg. I water change with tap water (comes out at TDS 66 ppm). After the nightly dose of macros (and the water change) the TDS is 88 ppm. By the end of the week it is something like 122 ppm TDS (or that was the day before, I can't remember. But if anyone wants me to share those results, I can).

Josh
 
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JoshP12

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Hi all,

I think I've driven myself into a potassium and/or phosphate deficiency.

It started as those little holes without yellowing (which I attributed to mechanical) and then led to:
1598377599757.png
1598377616503.png


It all happened so fast. I wonder if either the substrate ran out of potassium and/or the plant mass just increased so much that EI levels of KNO3 and K2HPO4 couldn't keep up for this specific plant composition.

1598377686213.png


I noticed a tiny bit of GSA on some s. repens leaves (that were newish) ... either CO2 or Phosphates.

The magnesium fixed the issue in the lemna + the pogo + the rotala. Then we notice the next deficiency. Hah. So complex! Leibig in action.

What I decided to do was increase my dose of KNO3 to 5 ppm daily and KH2PO4 to 1 ppm daily. 1.75 x EI. I also increased my Mg by to .9 ppm daily (from .8 ppm). I also added some root tabs under the crypts. I didn't touch my trace dose. Was all this the right move?

I suppose turning down the light is viable ... but ... light :).

Here is now:
1598377929241.png



We will see what happens.

Josh

EDIT: an interesting observation that I made was that some of my rotala were getting thinner leaves ... I was enjoying it, but go figure ... it was an indication that my nutrient levels were lower than before - and their consumption increased with plant mass.
 

JoshP12

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Hi all,

So I checked my dosing tubes and my phosphate one had loads of pink bacteria in it. In the early photo I posted of Buce with the goo, the goo was a bacterial sheet from in the dosing tubes.

I’ve flushed it and added new lines.

I did test my phosphates just to see if I’m running 0. It’s blue enough that I can say there is enough.

The bizarre thing is my duckweed (attached) looks good.

So my plants are moving mobile nutrients around ... for what reason? Unless the duckweed demand varies significantly from the others. Could another possibility be that the leaves are just old?

Those crypt leaves originally grew under my 30% lighting and its at 100% now. The new s. Repens grew when I was dosing lots of iron so potentially under low”er” phosphate conditions.

These are all slow growers so it isn’t an indication of my current state ... just trying to read the situation.

And the GSA?

Or, the duckweed index is telling me this is a co2 issue?

How do I read this one?
Josh
 

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