Did something eat these?

JoshP12

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Hi all,Separate iron.

cheers Darrel
Set ‘er up! Let’s see in a bit what those new leaves look like. I started with an extra .1 (however, it may be more like .05 due to solubility and pH).

If I continue seeing the paleness, just up the iron dose?

(I am looking for a different chelate but I had bought some of this EDTA before so may as well use it in the interim).

Josh
 

Witcher

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Also, will phosphate concentration in water column interfere with availability? In other words, if my phosphates are high, will I need a higher iron dose to compensate?
Hi Josh,

I'd rather choose different, stronger Fe chelate in lower quantities than increasing weak form of Fe.

Here is my 1/3 weekly dose of Fe (coming from mix of gluconate and Profito which is very likely Fe gluconate as well) mixed with 1/3 weekly dose of PO4, and left for more than 4 weeks. What you see is precipitated Iron Phosphate covered with algae (for first 10-15 days these flocks were greyish).

20200801_122655.jpg


And here is the same dose, but only Fe EDDHA was used as a source of Iron - no precipitation for 4 weeks or so. The darker area in the middle is a shadow, nothing more.
20200801_123841.jpg


In both I've applied 0.05Fe and 2.5 ppm of PO4 (1/3 weekly dose calculated for my tank - 240l) - so in the glass amounts were obviously massive.
 

JoshP12

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Hi Josh,

I'd rather choose different, stronger Fe chelate in lower quantities than increasing weak form of Fe.

Here is my 1/3 weekly dose of Fe (coming from mix of gluconate and Profito which is very likely Fe gluconate as well) mixed with 1/3 weekly dose of PO4, and left for more than 4 weeks. What you see is precipitated Iron Phosphate covered with algae (for first 10-15 days these flocks were greyish).

View attachment 152677

And here is the same dose, but only Fe EDDHA was used as a source of Iron - no precipitation for 4 weeks or so. The darker area in the middle is a shadow, nothing more.
View attachment 152678

In both I've applied 0.05Fe and 2.5 ppm of PO4 (1/3 weekly dose calculated for my tank - 240l) - so in the glass amounts were obviously massive.
Wow. Thank you so much for sharing. I just have to find out where to get a different chelate here in Canada.

Iron is iron is iron is iron, right? Doesn’t matter where I get it from?
 

Witcher

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Iron is iron is iron is iron, right? Doesn’t matter where I get it from?
Don't think it matters, I think Fe EDDHA (6 or 7%) is widely available in Canada, other forms of Fe too.

This is now my preferred form of Fe due to its strength of chelation (it's stable between 4-9pH). Previously I was using Fe gluconate for quite long time but as I can see at high doses of PO4 it 's quite unstable (noticeable precipitation occurred within 12 hours or so). But many sources say Fe gluconate is in the form which plants can uptake much easier than chelates so probably it's a matter of balance between PO4 and Fe plus suitable acidity of the water.
 

JoshP12

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Don't think it matters, I think Fe EDDHA (6 or 7%) is widely available in Canada, other forms of Fe too.

This is now my preferred form of Fe due to its strength of chelation (it's stable between 4-9pH). Previously I was using Fe gluconate for quite long time but as I can see at high doses of PO4 it 's quite unstable (noticeable precipitation occurred within 12 hours or so). But many sources say Fe gluconate is in the form which plants can uptake much easier than chelates so probably it's a matter of balance between PO4 and Fe plus suitable acidity of the water.
I think you are right ... that elusive phosphate 😊.

When you dose iron, if the water turns tinted and then slowly clears is it likely that the plants are taking up all the iron or is it just taking time for it react with everything else?

@dw1305, is the duckweed index fast enough to respond to a 1 day change? I attached today’s image; can we tell yet?

Also, I saw a neat thing today, although I think it’s too early to tell, I attached the photo of the rotala. Does it look a bit greener (the new leaves there) ? I’ll watch again tomorrow and update the photos.

Thanks again for the help.

Josh
 

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dw1305

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Hi all,
@dw1305, is the duckweed index fast enough to respond to a 1 day change?
Yes for nitrogen (N) you get a very quick greening. In the case of iron (Fe) you don't, because it is only new leaves that will be greener. Even with Duckweed (Lemna minor) it is going to take several days before new leaves are produced.

cheers Darrel
 

JoshP12

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Hi all, Yes for nitrogen (N) you get a very quick greening. In the case of iron (Fe) you don't, because it is only new leaves that will be greener. Even with Duckweed (Lemna minor) it is going to take several days before new leaves are produced.

cheers Darrel
Ahh! Mobile nutrient will fix quick - got it!

Can we say that my NPK is good from those photos? The reason I am asking, is can we use that info to rule out nutrient deficiencies to my rotala that have old leaves that look deficient - we can then attribute the “melt/move of nutrients” to stress from the massive rescale/replant/ammonia spike etc?

Josh
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
Ahh! Mobile nutrient will fix quick - got it!
Yes they will, and deficiencies will show on older leaves because the plant can shuffle these elements to the photosynthetic tissue that is receiving the most PAR.
Can we say that my NPK is good from those photos?
I can't say either way. Iron (Fe) is an easy one, because it is only really manganese (Mn) and iron that are <"immobile within the plant">, and likely to be deficient.

Once you are onto the mobile nutrients it becomes a <"lot more difficult">, because there are more of them, and they are much bigger "players" in plant growth. We know we need all <"fourteen essential mineral elements">, and that any-one of them can be limiting for plant growth.

cheers Darrel
 

JoshP12

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Darrel (@dw1305), it's too much for me :p.

You look at your tank, you notice an iron deficiency --> the plant can't get the iron that you pour in/provide as a root tab --> why?
1) is something blocking it within the leaf?
2) is something bonding to the iron? ... maybe the little precipitate will fall down to the substrate where, if I am lucky, it will nuzzle itself into the dirt and hopefully a little root will sneak up to it and some reducing bacteria will spawn to help that iron be accessible by the plant (or a little algae will spawn on it like in @Witcher's experiment ... or none of this will happen.
3) is there not enough iron?
... add all the other million things.

A mobile nutrient:
1) was the original leaf deficient and so the plant decides to move the nutrients to the newer more healthy leaves because it takes less energy?
2) maybe that particular area had poor nutrient distribution ... it's buddy shows no sign of dying.
3) is the plant getting rid of it's leaf nutrients because those leaf aren't ideal for the particular "new" area
... add all the other million +1 things.

I'm throwin' in the towel!

Is your leaf yellowish because it is degenerating chloroplast, or did it not have the nutrients to synthesize chlorophyll so it didn't even have the chance to degenerate itself.

Needless to say, I have had a very calm day where I have abandoned all hope of creating implications and have temporarily embraced a laissez-faire approach :cigar:.

That was short lived.

I may not be able to get Fe-EDDHA (for now) - still trying.

If I see no improvements in the next bit,
1) do I lean my phosphates/EI dose?
2) do I up my EDTA iron, until I get EDDHA?
3) just let everything grow pale?

Just keep trying, I suppose.

Josh
 
Last edited:

dw1305

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Hi all,
You look at your tank, you notice an iron deficiency --> the plant can't get the iron that you pour in/provide as a root tab --> why?
It is showing on the Lemna, which is reliant on available iron (as Fe++(+)) in the water column.
2) is something bonding to the iron? ... maybe the little precipitate will fall down to the substrate where, if I am lucky, it will nuzzle itself into the dirt and hopefully a little root will sneak up to it and some reducing bacteria will spawn to help that iron be accessible by the plant (or a little algae will spawn on it like in @Witcher's experiment ... or none of this will happen.
The substrate may have areas where iron ions become available, but for the plant to be able to make use of that iron, it needs to be <"within the zone of fluctuating REDOX"> in <"the rhizosphere">.
is the plant getting rid of it's leaf nutrients because those leaf aren't ideal for the particular "new" area
Plants are making "decisions" all the time about which leaves to keep, where to grow new leaves, how to align their leaves etc.
do I up my EDTA iron, until I get EDDHA?
Try that for the moment, keep looking at the new leaves on the Lemna, and try yo match their value against the leaf colour chart.



cheers Darrel
 

JoshP12

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Hi Josh,

I'd rather choose different, stronger Fe chelate in lower quantities than increasing weak form of Fe.

Here is my 1/3 weekly dose of Fe (coming from mix of gluconate and Profito which is very likely Fe gluconate as well) mixed with 1/3 weekly dose of PO4, and left for more than 4 weeks. What you see is precipitated Iron Phosphate covered with algae (for first 10-15 days these flocks were greyish).

View attachment 152677

And here is the same dose, but only Fe EDDHA was used as a source of Iron - no precipitation for 4 weeks or so. The darker area in the middle is a shadow, nothing more.
View attachment 152678

In both I've applied 0.05Fe and 2.5 ppm of PO4 (1/3 weekly dose calculated for my tank - 240l) - so in the glass amounts were obviously massive.
Hi Witcher!

What was the pH of the water you used in this experiment?

Josh
 

Witcher

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Hi Witcher!

What was the pH of the water you used in this experiment?

Josh
6-ish initially tending to 7.0-7.5-ish after few weeks - and I'm surprised, was expecting something around 8-ish in the end, but I have quite lots of tannin, acetates and other stuff to keep relatively high acidity. Ph can be quite deceptive as an unit of measure, it can behave in quite surprising way around the day, but water can still be acidic generally (or alkaline). I've stopped to look at pH (as a certain unit) as an important information about my water conditions.
 
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