DIY Macro Solution Problems

[Zeus.]

@ian_m
Grow a crystal???😯😯

If you use the gluppy PO4 mix on your tank you might have a crystal tank scape

 

[X3NiTH]

I would stick to KH2PO4 and still suggest making the mixture more dilute, 5ml/100L is really concentrate, 20ml/100L would be better.

If you need more K in the tank dose the Sulphate and Chloride at waterchange as remineralisation instead of trying to cram it all into one bottle.

 

[Zeus.]

View attachment 157220

I would stick to KH2PO4 and still suggest making the mixture more dilute, 5ml/100L is really concentrate, 20ml/100L would be better.

If you need more K in the tank dose the Sulphate and Chloride at waterchange as remineralisation instead of trying to cram it all into one bottle.

With Mg3(SO4)2 having covalent bonding hence the change solubility we was expecting form the native salts and its resultant salts thixotropic properties of the reactant ie gluppy.

Always good when we can fit the science with what we see/experiance

 

[Donovan]

Hello,
@Zeus. I'm sorry I really dont understand much of what you wrote there but I will definitely try and learn some more about it. Thankyou for helping out so much.
@X3NiTH Thankyou for all the help and the time you've spent on getting the answers. Really appreciate it.
I have a tank which is 300L and hence was trying to make a concentrated dose so I dont have to dose much(dosing 15ml sounded pretty decent to me at that time). However I will take you're advice and make a leaner dose and just make a bigger batch.
Just out of curiosity, would it really be a problem dosing such a concentrated solution?
Dosing the sulphate and chlorides after a water change is an option but I'm quite worried what would happen if the CL is a bit much for the livestock. Will try and see what happens.
I think it's best to keep exploring and finding out better ways to get things done.
Thankyou again everyone.
Regards
Donovan

 

[Zeus.]

I have always tried to make weker solutions, as it avoids the pitfalls of solubility and acts as a 'pseudo' tank top-up as well, In my 500l I dose 100ml a day and in 50l I dose 10ml a day, nice round numbers which make it dead easy to increase/decrease dose by any percentage from baseline and back again dead easy

 

[X3NiTH]

Making a concentrate is only problematical if you have reactions in the bottle that may make some elements form insoluble compounds thus decreasing the efficacy of the resulting concentrate. Dosing a concentrate is only problematical for plants and animals if they come into contact with it in concentration before it has a chance to fully disperse throughout the water column.

Whether your dosing your Sulphates and Chlorides in one go or dosed sequentially over the week makes no difference you will still have an accumulated amount totalling near to what it would be dosed in one go. Dosing a fixed amount at waterchange as remineralisation allows you to start with a maxima that will then be depleted over time but never enough for the plants to have a shortfall and the water chemistry stays more stable from week to week through remineralised water changes.

 

[Donovan]

Hello,
I will definitely make a weaker solution as you'll suggested. It has alot of advantages over making a concentrated mix.
In regard to dosing the CL at one go, the only thing that worries me if it's too much for the fish at once. Spreading it over a few days seems better to me but I will definitely give it a try as well.
Does anyone know what's the max concentration of CL that the fish can take ?

Regards
Donovan

 

[X3NiTH]

Does anyone know what's the max concentration of CL that the fish can take ?

For Chloride (Cl-), many magnitudes more than you would ever need to dose to a tank to increase the level of an associated element to the satisfaction of plants.

Here’s an extreme example from a study in the US - ACUTE TOXICITY OF CHLORIDES, SULFATES, AND TOTAL DISSOLVED SOLIDS
TO SOME FISHES IN ILLINOIS

Don’t be confusing Chloride Cl- with Chlorine Cl.

 

[Donovan]

Hello @X3NiTH
Thankyou for that.
Looks like the 6ppm I've added to the tank is nothing compared to what they can take.
I think I will do as you suggested and dose it after water change and keep the tank more stable.
Thankyou again for all the advice.

Cheers
Donovan

 

[Oldguy]

However I just want to confirm if you think it's better to use the K3PO4 or just stick to the KH2PO4.?

K3PO4 is a strong base and will increase your pH. Most use KH2PO4 because it has a smaller impact on pH.

Holes in plant leaves may be caused by too high a light level/too long a photo period for CO2 & nutrient distribution/dosing levels. Just a thought.

 

[ian_m]

Holes in plant leaves may be caused by too high a light level/too long a photo period for CO2 & nutrient distribution/dosing levels. Just a thought.

Holes in leaves can also be caused by potassium shortage. Wonder if due to dosing di-potassium and tri-potassium phosphate the potassium falls out of solution and become not available for plant use ?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Wonder if due to dosing di-potassium and tri-potassium phosphate the potassium falls out of solution and become not available for plant use ?

I'm pretty sure that potassium (K+) is always plant available, just because all the compounds of alkali (group 1) metals are soluble.

cheers Darrel

 

[Dani7]

.

 

[Dani7]

For Chloride (Cl-), many magnitudes more than you would ever need to dose to a tank to increase the level of an associated element to the satisfaction of plants.

Here’s an extreme example from a study in the US - ACUTE TOXICITY OF CHLORIDES, SULFATES, AND TOTAL DISSOLVED SOLIDS
TO SOME FISHES IN ILLINOIS

Don’t be confusing Chloride Cl- with Chlorine Cl.

Hi @X3NiTH , do you have any links for information on proper Chloride (Cl-) levels in a planted aquarium or what levels are toxic to plants?

 

[X3NiTH]

Not specifically sorry, I don’t have access to the papers behind paywalls relating to Chloride toxicity and aquatic plants but there are plenty of free to view papers on terrestrial plants and toxicity when searching ‘Chloride Salt and Plant Nutrition’.

I can say however that there are no proper Chloride levels in a planted aquarium because the environment is entirely artificial to a large degree and the addition or removal of salts to reach a desired level will be completely dependant on the source water (Tap, RO or RainWater) and available/cheapest salts.

If I were to remineralise 0TDS water to say 20dGH with Calcium and Magnesium Chlorides at a ratio of around 3:1 Ca:Mg then it only represents about 250ppm of Chloride in the water, this is an extreme example it would be a rare situation to need to remineralise to that degree and I wouldn’t do it this manner. However I have remineralised regularly to 6dGh using Chloride derived Magnesium and Calcium salts in the form of SaltyShrimpGH+ and been very successful at growing plants in this environment (others have also) using EI levels of nutrition.

As to what levels are safe for Chloride and plants appears to be tied with Nitrate, as long as there is enough Nitrate to conduct molecular transportation within the plant to efflux excess Chloride then the plant will thrive, if not then the plant will store excess Chloride in the tissues resulting in toxicity issues and leaf damage chlorosis - necrosis.

As to what ratio of NO3:Cl is beneficial I don’t know but they are both antagonistic to each other according to Mulders chart so more of one element will limit the uptake of the other. All things being equal 1:1 wouldn’t be out of the question but certainly not for remineralisation in extreme to 20dGH in Chlorides because 250ppm NO3 wouldn’t be beneficial.