DIY substrate - wormcast, akadama, FTE....

[Amoeba]

I am just setting up a new tank and decided to give the wormcast a go (after reading this article http://amania.110mb.com/Chapters/Tech/s ... ls_en.html)

I am not quite sure about the quantities to use though, hence I would be happy to hear your opinions.

Here is what I’m planning on:
Tank: 120x45*55
Light: 4x54W
CO2, EI, 1200lph (filter), 1800lph (circulation pump)

Substrate
Bottom
- Crushed lava rock – 2.5kg
- Nitrozyme – 50ml
- Fritted Trace Elements (12% FE, release time 1-2years) – 20g
- Maracle Grow slow release (17-4-9 NPK) 20g
- Mychorrhizal fungi - 10g
- Peat – 200g

Main
- Akadama – 10kg
- Wormcast (~2%N and 1%p) – 10kg
- Bone meal (3.5%N, 7.5%P) – 1kg
- Fritted Trace Elements – 50g
- Maracle Grow slow release (17-4-9 NPK) – 200g
- Mychorrhizal fungi – 100g

Top
- Akadama – 10-20kg
- Bone meal (3.5%N, 7.5%P) – 100g
- Fritted Trace Elements – 25g
- Maracle Grow slow release (17-4-9 NPK) – 100g
- Mychorrhizal fungi – 100g

I am also considering adding some rooting hormones (0.25% 1-Naphthaleneacetic acid) , but have no idea about the dosage.

What do you reckon?

 

[ceg4048]

Hi,
Sounds unbelievably complicated and over the top. All you need really, is some Akadama, a bit of peat and maybe some NPK or your worm castings at the bottom and you'll be fine, especially if you're dosing EI. Your problem in this tank is going to be CO2 distrubution, not nutrients or sediment issues, that's for sure.

I dose EI with plants rooted in basically inert clay substrates and have no difficulty whatsoever. Just have a look at JamesC's Akadama sticky at the top of this section.

Cheers,

 

[plantbrain]

Folks tend to go overboard, Naman certainly does.

Wormcastings is a fairly old method coming from some folks who did nice scapes in Brazil around 1998-2000.
It is not that different than soil via Walstad who also was mentored with soil from those before her and myself.

I had a more interest in the water column but had some experiences prior with soil, "dirty sand".
Wormstrates are simple and easy to do, less work, effort than many, these also work with DSM's.

As long as you add some clay, soils with NPK etc........but mostly focus on CO2/light, nutrients are pretty easy, add rich nutrients to sediments and the water column........then focus on CO2, chose lower light, you are in good shape.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[Amoeba]

Hi, thanks for the responses

Sounds unbelievably complicated and over the top. All you need really, is some Akadama, a bit of peat and maybe some NPK or your worm castings at the bottom and you'll be fine, especially if you're dosing EI.

Have been doing that for quite a while now. Akadama+osmocote. Decided to see how the plants will respond to a different substrate.

Your problem in this tank is going to be CO2 distrubution, not nutrients or sediment issues, that's for sure.

Is it because of the amount of light, or circulation? (b.t.w I am running the lights on 108W with 216W bust for 2-3h a day)

EDIT:

Folks tend to go overboard, Naman certainly does.

Well, I guess you know cos you've already been there
Any comments on the amount of osmocote/fritted traces?

 

[ceg4048]

Hi, thanks for the responses

Sounds unbelievably complicated and over the top. All you need really, is some Akadama, a bit of peat and maybe some NPK or your worm castings at the bottom and you'll be fine, especially if you're dosing EI.

Have been doing that for quite a while now. Akadama+osmocote. Decided to see how the plants will respond to a different substrate.

Well, yes I understand that part, but remember that every tank setup is different so it'll be difficult to conclude with any certainty what the differences will be and to what factor any differences should be attributed. Aquatic plants are opportunist and they eagerly feed from the water column and from the sediment as required. If the sediment is nutrient loaded and if the water column is nutrient loaded the plant will feed from both locations. It really doesn't matter what particular combination of Akadama+nutrients you use because the bottom line will be a high CEC sediment loaded with NPK and traces, which are exactly the same in Miracle Grow as they are in Osmocote. Peat is added as a source of carbohydrates for the bacterial colonies which will accelerate their population growth. But really, all of this nutrient loading to the substrate can be replicated by simply adding more water column dosing, or, if you prefer, by adding more Osmocote.

Your problem in this tank is going to be CO2 distrubution, not nutrients or sediment issues, that's for sure.

Is it because of the amount of light, or circulation? (b.t.w I am running the lights on 108W with 216W bust for 2-3h a day)

Yes, it's because of both. Large tanks are notorious for the difficulties getting proper circulation to satisfy the plants, especially under high lighting. I assume the lights are T5 and that your dimensions are in inches? If the dimensions are centimeters and this is T5 then 216/80G is nearly 3WPG and that is a lot of light. The bottom line is that Carbon uptake is top priority and if you want to see real improvement then it would be better, as Tom mentions, to dedicate more energy optimizing CO2 distribution techniques. If Carbon uptake is the limiting factor then it won't matter how fancy your sediment concoction is.

Here, check this out. This is basic clay substrate but with attention paid to water column dosing + good CO2 + good flow. From top to bottom is about 24 inches. Is this enough performance? Looking at your list of ingredients makes my head spin.

Cheers,

 

[Amoeba]

No worries. I'm doing it just for fun. No conclusions, just fun
Yes, yes, yes. I know. If I say it works for me better than EI then the whole EI/ADA discussion will start over again.

The dimensions are in cm. So 120cm long, 45cm wide and 55cm high. 4x54W T5, Arcadia

When it comes to CO2 diffusion and circulation that's always been the main goal behind the new setup.
The tank is drilled (4 holes in total) and that should give me quite good flexibility in terms of adjusting the flow without a lot of pipework/cables around the tank.
The extra circulation pump is going to be either 1800lph or 2700lph. CO2 diffused with needle wheel.

The whole set-up was inspired by Tom's 180 and 450g tanks (hi Tom, you have already woken up to have a look and let me know what you think about the amounts of ferts I am planning on adding ). I was also thinking about using AS as he does but it would be a shame to waste all the perfectly good akadama I have.

 

[plantbrain]

I'd use maybe 1/2 this amount of light or have it 20-30cm above the tank.
4x54W is a lot of light.

I use that on a 120 cm x 60x 60 and then it's 20-30cm above the tank.

A 70-80 Gal should do fine with a good T5 2x54 set up.

Use the out side two bulbs for lighting, if you are a glutton for punishment, try 4x54 after things have grown is very well and are sure the CO2 is good.

You can also do 2-3 hours noon burst with the 4 bulbs and then the rest for 8-9 hours.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[Piece-of-fish]

Hi, its a pity you dont read russian Tom. Naman has enough good information on his site, The DIY ada stuff is just a small part of it. i know you fellas dont get along . The main thing he is trying to explain is to try to get non limiting fertilizers in the substrate to reduce the watercolumn dosage and get as stable system as ADA could be with lean water dosage of ferts.He is trying to give you the DIY alternatives to ADA soils and PS as closest as you could get. It up to you then to skip some of the elements. I agree though that some things which add to the price of substrate significantly could be avoided to make it more easy.

Amoeba i think you got the vermicost ammount wrong. He recommends to use 1-2 cm layer of it in the english version which i really dobt would be 10kg. In the russian vesion he recommends 1-2 cm of the bottom layer including lava moss peat, and vemicost so the vemicost should be even less. Had a look now and he recommends 100-200ml of it to add to 1L of lava in the russian version (which is about 10 times bigger and very detailed actually with quite scientific approach to things which he gathered from multiple suorces and didnt take from his head). In fact he agrees that for 3-4 month scapes with changing of the substrate in the end just some osmocote, moss peat, mb some worm castings plus top layer with high cec is enough!
I will be testing this method as well now and will limit myself to lava, 500ml of worm castings (could be 1l really tank 120x55cm bottom) some osmocote and JBL florapol for fritted ferts. Akadama as the top layer (two grades).
I wouldnt put osmocote to the top layer as well to avoid leaking ferts to the water.
regards... Fritted ferts need to have at least 5cm of other substrate on top to actually work as far as i know so adding it to the top layer is worthless.

 

[wearsbunnyslippers]

the Mychorrhizal fungi will die once totally immersed and bonemeal is very organic so add to that the fine sand of wormcastings and peat, your substrate will probably go anaerobic very quickly...

 

[Amoeba]

Amoeba i think you got the vermicost ammount wrong..............

Hmmm, a bit to late to change it now :?
In the end I decided to use 1cm layer, which is less than what people use in LT.
Still quite a lot, but I am not going to re-scape more frequently than once a year.

I wouldnt put osmocote to the top layer as well to avoid leaking ferts to the water.
regards... Fritted ferts need to have at least 5cm of other substrate on top to actually work as far as i know so adding it to the top layer is worthless.

Funny you say that After more reading I have spotted the issue with fritted traces and added them only to the bottom and mid layers.

When it comes to osmocote. Also in this case I have added just a little bit to the top layer. Not as originally planned.
One more diff is that I've used JBM Manado. I've seen it in a FLS LT tank and it looked great. Also the price was really reasonable (£28 for 25L) so decided to give it a go.

Let me know how it goes. I have the hardscape ready. Will be buying some fast growing plants in the LFS for a start. Hoping to add the water mid next week.

the Mychorrhizal fungi will die once totally immersed.

That's the one thing I was not quite sure about when read about adding the fungi. May have just wasted money then. It was only £4 though, so can live with that
Have you found any good source of information about fungi in aquatic environment?

 

[jaylc005]

Hi, new here, and this is my first post but seeing as this was the first thread I have read I must add that 4NAA is very dangerous to aquatic life, so under no circumstances use it in the aquarium.

and.. HI
jay

 

[Piece-of-fish]

Hi, new here, and this is my first post but seeing as this was the first thread I have read I must add that 4NAA is very dangerous to aquatic life, so under no circumstances use it in the aquarium.

and.. HI
jay

What is 4NAA?

How it is going Amoeba? by the way. Does the LT stand for Lithuania? Do you notice any changes?

 

[naman]

Folks tend to go overboard, Naman certainly does.

This lie comes from those who had never read my articles, unable to get the point, or both.

Naman has enough good information on his site, The DIY ada stuff is just a small part of it.

Well, it has ~140 articles, 150000+ words, and 500-1100 page views every day since Nov-2007 (see counter on the home page). 100% of planted aquarium science knowledge in russian speaking community (250-300mln audience) comes from my 'Amania', here any kid on the block knows this. (IE only, sorry)

... its a pity you dont read russian...

'Amania' would be helpful for those who still using PAR-meter instead of lux-meter, circulation pumps, micron filters, drilled tanks, dosing ferts in powder form, have CO2-hysteria, calls penac 'snake oil' etc etc etc., to be concise for all those 'barr-victims / hate-amano club' members

... very detailed actually with quite scientific approach to things which he gathered from multiple suorces and didnt take from his head ...

Yes, I do not make any claims without scientific reference.

BTW if someone believe for those liers who claims Amano is sharlatan or have teached him to dose PO4, penac products works. Used all over Europe. This is a scientifically proofed fact. Special new device registering photosynthesis rates involved though... Device was invented ~10 years ago, used all over EU, gold medal for innovation in EU etc. It registers photosynthesis rates by registering O2 production of live leaves within minutes(!) immediatly after any additive added or at any given moment after addition including humic acids, pestisides, heavy metals, any industrial pollutatnts, reading mantras, or playing Bach music It even easily registers growth rates decline for trees as result of an air pollution whithin minutes and a penny price... It is really revolutionary device, biologists knows. The most exciting thing is that measurements are made from live plants in their natural habitate, thus you can register influence of any additive/method in a given eco-system(!), not just one substance influence added in sterile vial.
For land plants penac adds up to 15-30% of growth rates, proper variety (for soil/spray/water) should be used though...

For a planted aquarium this device can help register photosynthesis rates difference with lava, CO2-misting, water circulation, night aeration, noon spike method, lapms with different colour temps, raised NPK levels in water column, compare growth rates with sabstrate or water column as a main nutrients source, rock phosphate, CEC vs AEC, substrate's porocity and permeability, DTPA vs ferrouse gluconate, influence of glutaraldehyde, heating substrate bottom, any biostimulants, AMF, filtration method, water hardness and kH influence, penac to name a few... whatever you choose. And it is as easy as measuring light levels with a lux-meter, for free. No chemical tests, spectrophotometry, or voodoo dance with plants dry mass research involved.

... bonemeal is very organic so add to that the fine sand of wormcastings and peat, your substrate will probably go anaerobic very quickly...

Wrong. Rock phosphate is the thing to use. It will not leach PO4 into water column in soils, nor in aquarium substrate. 'Proper' rock phosphate or 'bone meal' should be used.

the Mychorrhizal fungi will die once totally immersed...

Wrong. Rice grain yield is 14-21% higher when seedlings inoculated with AMF. Increases in grain yield after inoculation with Acaulospora sp., Glomus fasciculatum (Riverside) and Glomus mosseae (Invermay) is 35-65%. '
Guess how rice is planted on paddy fields?
Proper AMF species should be involved though.

AMF is actually what made water plants to come out off the water (if I correctly remember).
Wetland plants has AMF too (~70%). '
Many water plants have AMF in their roots, particularly those without root hairs. Acaulospora sp., Glomus fasciculatum (Riverside) and G. mosseae (Invermay) were found to be the best in improving plant height and total biomass. AMF enhance phosphate uptake in the submersed plant Vallisneria americana etc.

As for price & simplicity, if many falks will use AMF, 1-2 years later you will have all local aquarum plants inoculated for free... But you must have proper substrate for them to survive, plain gravel will not work. AMF will not survive in hydroponic media as it is killed by high NPK+micro concentrations. It also will not replace need for light, CO2, NPK, micros or general rules needed to maintain planted tanks known from 1980's.

I still wonder where is that complexity comes from in Amoeba's recipes... Nothing common in 'Amania' articles.
It states CEC + some organics + inorganic NPK + mirco + peat + bacteria culture is all you need, and you can use many products for this, as easy as that. Don't be that stupid to use garden/potting soil and mineralizing it, it is not the same as vermicompost at all. BTW here in Russia garden soil-lime-peat-charcoal mix topped with sand was used for planted tanks since 1885 (Zolotnitsky), and Walstad's method has nothing to do with substrate and methods I use...