Does anyone have experience growing, Echinodorus 'Small bear' and Echinodorus 'Yellow Sun'

DutchMuch

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As the title says, does anyone have experience growing, Echinodorus 'Small bear' and Echinodorus 'Yellow Sun'?

i recently purchased a few of (both) these and am looking for more info on them since there seems to be so little... Pictures also would be nice to see. :)
 

DutchMuch

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link was for “small bear”
:oops:
tyty
i looked it up by that name, got a tad bit more detail but nothing crazy still. Honestly surprised that it is this uncommon, you wouldnt think echinodorus sp. as a whole would have truly any uncommon plants and that they'd all be fairly used! Very neat.

Still nothing under yellow sun anywhere haha

Thank you alto for the help i appreciate it


now the yellow sun is all that is left, and if anyone finds anything on small bear to!
 

alto

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Green Aqua carries Aquaflora’s version of E “yellow sun” - you might email and ask after any aquarium details
https://www.greenaqua.hu/en/aquaflora-echinodorus-yellow-sun.html


For E kleiner bar, I’m surprised you can’t find anything on US forums - I don’t think it’s as common as it used to be so mostly archives I suspect
As I recall it’s submerse leaf is similar to the emerse leaf shape/colour and it remains “smaller”

Flowgrow has some photos and aquarium links (rather different than the Singapore version I’ve seen - but that was grown in a nonCO2 tank, limited nutrients)

https://www.flowgrow.de/db/aquaticplants/echinodorus-dschungelstar-nr-2-kleiner-bar
 

alto

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Sometime back Tropica offered an Echinodorus “Red Special” (perhaps Mick.Dk will correct me on the name) that was one of my favourites :)
 

DutchMuch

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For E kleiner bar, I’m surprised you can’t find anything on US forums
You are a mind of information i tell u alto haha

look what i found in one of your links;
"The Echinodorus variety 'Kleiner Baer' (translates as "little bear") was bred by Julius Hoechstetter (Trostberg). It is also sold in trade under the name Echinodorus Dschungelstar Nr.2 'Kleiner Baer'. Rarely available in the USA."
maybe this is why there is so little info about it in the US forums and sites? very interesting!!! i Wonder as to why it was rarely available? i imagine this has not changed much, it did take me a while to find small bear myself..
 

alto

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I believe it (& other aquarium plants) was more readily available until the US changed plant import regulations ... may be 10 years ago
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
The Echinodorus variety 'Kleiner Baer' (translates as "little bear")
Have a look at Marcel's (@zozo) post in <"Flowering aquatic plants">.

m8e8ec.jpg


cheers Darrel
 

Mick.Dk

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I tested the "Junglestar nr. 2" aka "Kleiner bear" long ago, when looking for a small, red Echinodorus for Tropica. The "Reni" was chosen for overall better performance on many parametres than all competitors at the time, including "Kleiner bear".
As for the "Yellow sun", I do not remember testing it. Having read Alto's link, reporting the proneness to growing surface leaves (like cordifolius) this would most likely have dismissed it, since that is not a highly desirable feature for aquaria.
Tropica did offer a "Red special" years ago, yes. There was a better market fore large, red Echinodorus then. "Red special" and "Rubin" ( "Rubin narrow" is smaller) was rather large in aquatic use and both dismissed.
 

zozo

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Here is an informative article about it.
https://www.aquariumdomain.com/adSocial/index.php/kleiner-bar-sword/
Info is a bit inconsistent because its an old hang around in the trade since 1995.. Nobody seems to know its true origine. Some say its a cross breed hybrid other say it originated in a lab as result of an genetic experiment. The only one who realy knows is its Daddy.
http://www.seerosen-hoechstetter.de/php/index.php

I never grew this plant very long in its submersed form and it loves to grow emersed. It actualy happend unintentionaly, This sword is a remarkable relative undemanding plant. It able to detect its invironment and that i find very special and intriguing. Since both forms are completely different but it will always search for the surface and once a submersed form leaf reaches this surface it will grow its leaftip over the waterline. There it starts to dry out rather soon. If this leaf is left on the plant others will follow, this seems to be the trigger for the plant to know where its at and it starts growing out different emersed form small leaves on long stalks. Once this new form leaf makes contact with the atmosphere it starts to grow bigger and the intire plant stops making submersed form leaves. It switches completely into a different mode and flowers vigorously all year long.



Don't let the name fool you "Small Bear". because it can grow up to 50cm - 20" submersed and over 80cm _ 30" emersed.. Kleiner Bär alias Jungle Star probably was named by its father after the star constelation "little dipper" which translates as Kleiner Bär in German.
Big-and-Little-Bears.jpg

But this is just a best guess.. Because it aint small, but likely back than still one of the smallest swords available. :)

Anyway, this remarkable mind boggling build in detection system, makes it a rather versatile plant with Big and also Small potential. The plant regulates its size in the depth it is planted in

As said it geneticaly reaches for the surface and it will keep growing till it gets there and it will size it's submersed and emersed form leaves up to the planting depth. If planted very shallow it will stay a rather small plant.. As you can see in the picture @dw1305 posted above, that Kleiner Bar was planted 25cm -10" deep, than it grows 10" submersed form leaves reaching for the atmosphere. To maintain this size you need to trim of submersed form leaves that pop the surface sniffing the atmosphere. And as reported if planted 20" deep it can grow 20" tall submersed form leaves. But if planted very shallow in 2" depth it reaches the atmosphere rather soon and it has no need to grow very much bigger.

This Kleiner Bear grows in my garden tub planted 2" deep standing in the full sun all day long and it stays about this size barely 4" to 5" tall, it has reached its goal no need to grow bigger.
DSC_0937.jpg


This young one is also planted outdoor 2" deep, still submersed gathering strenght, it was a about leafless rhizome 2 months ago. Planted this shallow it probaly alreadt gets enough CO² it doesn't bother making submersed form leaves.

DSC_0938.jpg




If your goal is small staying Echinodorus.. Take a look at the cultivar - E. Regine Hildebrandt, no idea if it already found its way to the United States.
https://www.flowgrow.de/db/aquaticplants/echinodorus-regine-hildebrandt

I'm also growing a few of this one emersed at the time, yet have no submersed form experience with it, but reportedly its one of the smallest available. :)

But they are simply very stunning addaptable plants.. A plant sp. that showed me there is more to plant life than meets the eye..
 

zozo

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Very strange that the plant does this. Never heard of such a thing...!

Me neither, it was my first time growing this type of plant in an open top aqauirium and see its pottentials. <Actualy my very first open top tropical aqaurium>. Before that i only kept traditional hooded tanks. I guess, most info out there is aimed towards its aqaurium suitability, in emersed form it seases to be an aqaurium plant. Yet there are very little data bases to find fully describing or guide bog plants both grow forms.

But due t this experience i'm kinda hooked to growing aquarium / bog plants emersed. :)
And it all started with this Kleiner Bär still submersed. There you see 1 leaf already reached the surface. All kleiner bärs i'm growing today is offspring from this plant.
h1idsjt-jpg.jpg


fyzybsz-jpg.jpg


In a hooded tank the air under the hood will be extremely humid over 90%, than the plant would likely grow on in height to 20" in submersed form.

But in an open top tank at least in the region i live (northern hemisphere) the humidity even above an open top tank is rather low. In a well vetialted room it drops to 45% already about 1" above the water line. Thus a leaf sticking over 1" out over the surface starts to dry its tip. If that leaf is not cut off another follows and than suddenly you'll see a different leaf form appear from its rossete. Simply a long stalk with a small yet kinda rolled up redish leaf to it, this stalk will keep growing till it reaches the surface there it unfoalds this leaf and it grows in size in its emersed form. Not long after the flower stalks will appear.
dscf7173-kopie-jpg.jpg


After its done flowering a new plant will appear in the flowers axillas. The fower stalks are equaly remarkable as reproduction organ, if kept in an aqaurium simply a glass box on a cabinet. The flower stalks actualy keep growing, i had a few that where almost 6 feet long. I have no idea if they can get any longer. But it seems it simply keeps growing falling over reaching for water or dirt or any other substrate for the new young plantlet to root in. As long it doesn't find it it keeps putting energy into the lenght of the flower stalk. In the abobe picture you see one flower stalk i did bend it over back into the water and it stops growing in lenght and it grew a healthy new plant. The one above it with the flower is still airborn and will keep on growing to find a spot to lay down and root. Again a remarkable mechanisme, as soon as a plantlet on the flower stalk is able to root, the mother shuts off the energy supply to this flower stalk and it no longer grows in lenght.

As said it most likely also is a humidity thing when it comes to emersed size. Lately i bought a Echinodorus palaefolius from the (much more humid) nursery in emersed form. It was a plant over a feet tall. It's for an emersed experiment and i placed it on the window sil, all old leaves died off and it came back with new leaves that grow extremely slow yet not taller than 4" to 5".
DSC_0939.jpg


Even if i buy a Kleiner Bär from the nursery it will be bigger than the one i currently grow outdoors still refusing to grow taller than 3".

But the E. regine hildebrandt is an extremly hardy Echinodorus it didn't suffer 1 minute tp transition to lower humidity.
DSC_0940.jpg

Tho while some are extremely addaptable it is not for all, some Echinodorus spp. are impossible to grow like this in our relative dry climate.

E. Yellow sun probably is a like wise addaptable plant if it inherited it's hardiness from the correct source, it's not fully clear but it seems to be a cross breed cultivar grown from E. cordifolius x E. floribundus. E. cordifolius is known to be extremely addaptable and suitable for tall open top aqauriums, i grew it for a while but gave it away due to lak of space. E. floribundus is yet absoltely unknown to me.
 

DutchMuch

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Update:

Yellow sun, is growing large new leaves, that are horizontal growing.

Small bear, is growing narrow leaves going Straight up, and is battling algae/diatoms.


Unrelated but complicating:

My tropical blue lily is only growing submersed leaves, tisk tisk, i want those pads- advice?:rolleyes:
 
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zozo

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Unrelated but complicating: My tropical blue lily is only growing emersed leaves, tisk tisk, i want those pads- advice?

Light.. :) In numbers i can not tell, the diiferent lily sp. i'm growing definitively have different light requirements. I do not know if there is a reasonable midway making the plant do both. But my experience so far is it grows either only submersed in the lower light range and emersed floating leaves in the medium/high light range.

It actualy does the same thing as described with the Echinodorus above. Once it starts to grow and developed floaters it stops making submersed form leaves.
Thus it's not completely Unrelated.. :) To prevent an Echi from transitioning back to emersed in an open top tank than you need to keep trimming away to leaves and stalks that pop the surface. I guess the same goess for a Lily, if it starts to shoot out floater leaves, cut it off. don't let them reach the surface. I guess it works simmular like that, because i never tried it myself, but i see pictures of people growing lily submersed form in pretty high light, high tech tanks.

If you like to enjoy both forms in same tank under same conditions, you'r best with growing 2 seperate lily plants (each from its seperate bulb). At least i never managed to have both forms on the same plant for longer than a few months. So don't let pictures fool you showing both grow forms at the same time, same tank, it either is 2 seperate plants or a snapshot in time from 1 plant in its intermediate transitioning stage.

Anyway, to make the story short :) lower the light intensity (Maybe period too) and cut away all floaters from the bulb. It will start regrowing submersed form leaves. If you see it shoot out a floater leaf cut it off. The difference between the both forms is easy, a rolled up leaf on a stem is emersed grow form, submersed is always open starts small grows bigger. But if the light intensity is low enough it wont form floaters at all. Thus if it does/tries, you can consider your light regarding the lily still as medium/high.

Where you go with this is up to the rest of the plants light requirements in your tank. :thumbup:
 

DutchMuch

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grows either only submersed in the lower light range and emersed floating leaves in the medium/high light range.
That is truly strange! i would have thought the opposite, currently im using my good trusty T5HO 6 bulb custom bulb fixture that gives out (with new bulbs over 200 par we assume, its very high light)
bulbs are needing to be replaced but they arent to old yet, i dont think it'd be that dim? seeing as the yellow sun is growing horizontal leaves? Strange...!


Edit:
just thought, maybe the thick tannins i have in this tank (biotope like style) are dropping par significantly, most likely i think.
 

zozo

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That is truly strange! i would have thought the opposite, currently im using my good trusty T5HO 6 bulb custom bulb fixture that gives out (with new bulbs over 200 par we assume, its very high light)
bulbs are needing to be replaced but they arent to old yet, i dont think it'd be that dim? seeing as the yellow sun is growing horizontal leaves? Strange...!


Edit:
just thought, maybe the thick tannins i have in this tank (biotope like style) are dropping par significantly, most likely i think.

I don't quite understand?.. Do you like the plant to grow emersed (floating leaves) or submersed form without any floating leaves?

Bottom line in general is:

Low light/short periode a lily is prone to only develop submersed form leaves.

High light and longer periode (12H+) it starts to develop floaters and slowly dies off all submersed form leaves not making new ones. Only if the bulb spreads runners and new baby plants than the new growth stays submersed for a while till its mature enough.

Now there are quite a lot of different lilies out there, as said i have a few different sp. and each reacts different to light, 1 is very ealry with growing floaters and the other rather 2 monhs later. I have no idea what your Blue Lily is.. Could be a number of varieties or cultivar or a Nympaea nouchalli (commonly known as the Sacret Blue Nile Lotus).

Now i'm not experienced with all lilies out there and i also not experienced with growing all exclusively under artificial light. My aqauriums all get a rather high dose of natural day light. This also has a rather dynaic cycle, a lot in the summer and verry little during the winter than i switch on artificial light to help. STill my lilies do not develop floaters during this winter periode, all die off within 2 months and the plants switch to submersed form only. For most lilies you need quite some par to make 'm develop floaters. :) But this differs per species..

This is one of mine, in its winter dress.
dsc_0438-jpg.jpg


Same lily but in its summer dress.
dsc_0266-jpg.jpg


Ths is already going on for 5 years switching dress each winter and summer back and forth.

This aquarium get a ton of day light from a skylight in the roof above it. :) In the summer so much i often switch off the spot lights above it. And during the winter the spotlights aint enough to make it develop floaters.
 
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DutchMuch

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I don't quite understand?.. Do you like the plant to grow emersed (floating leaves) or submersed form without any floating leaves?
No submersed leaves, i had the 40b high tech and it was new bulbs and the lily i had in there (later became invasive so killed it) was throwing emersed leaves nicely.
 
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