Dosing Deficiency?

klolyn

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16 Feb 2019
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London, UK
Hi

Details as requested....

1. Size of tank.
400l with sump (50l approx over 4 chambers)
2. Filtration.
Sump - 1. In chamber filter sponges 2. K1 and Airstones 3. Biohome 4. Return pump
3. Lighting and duration.
fluvial fresh & plant 2.0 and fluvial aquasky 9 to 2000 with 2 hour break
4. Substrate.
JBL Mando
5. Co2 dosing or Non-dosing.
Co2 approx 8 bps - drop checker showing pale blue/green
6. Fertilisers used + Ratios.
EI Dosing salts from AquariumPlantFood - Micro 75ml and Chelated Iron 25ml x 3 days a week. Macro x alt 3 days per week
7. Water change regime.
70% on Sundays - although this is a new regime. previously it would have been circa 90l every other week.
8. Plant list.
Hygrophila as per picture, crypts, java fern. Any attempts to try small leave and carpeting plants has seen them melt away/die off
9. Inhabitants.
Neon, Rummynose, Flying Fox, Clownloach,yoyo loach, Kooly loach, Bristlenose Alec, Boesemani Rainbow, Rainbow torpedo, Columbian and black widow tetras
10. Full tank shot below...

i wonder if the two LED lamps provide the required light to the bottom of the tank - though i would have thought they would be suffiecient. It is noticeable that the full setting of the plant 2.0 is only achieved by pressing the button on the lamp, if left to auto mode it does not reach full brilliancy, which is strange and picked up by others on forum. not keen to layout for new LED (fluvial 3.0?) unless this is the reason why my plants fail to turn into a jungle!!
Whilst the Flying fox can be seen scraping algae I'm not sure if they are wreaking havoc on the plants....

Thanks in advance for any advice for where I'm going wrong...

Keith

upload_2020-4-29_7-34-40.png
 

klolyn

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16 Feb 2019
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London, UK
..further. Im considering ditching the EI for liquid feed - TNC Complete et al. But not sure if its the EI dosing that is the problem (what I'm doing with it anyway) and, of course, it is much more economical to do the salts even if I am, I suspect, putting in too much each dose....

Keith
 

Siege

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11 Aug 2017
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Cambridgeshire, UK
Hi Keith,

A couple of thoughts -

I would suggest it is not fert related, more likely low co2 in comparison to a long lighting period.

Increasing the light intensity will only increase the plants demand for co2, showing up deficiencies faster.


Ps. You also look rather sparsely planted.
 

Zeus.

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1 Oct 2016
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Yorkshire,UK
3. Lighting and duration.
fluvial fresh & plant 2.0 and fluvial aquasky 9 to 2000 with 2 hour break
Too long a photo period and a break isnt advised IMO

. Co2 dosing or Non-dosing.
Co2 approx 8 bps - drop checker showing pale blue/green
Have you done a pH profile? To check the [CO2] is relatively stable for first 4-5 hours from lights on
when does CO2 come on/off

6. Fertilisers used + Ratios. EI Dosing salts from AquariumPlantFood - Micro 75ml and Chelated Iron 25ml x 3 days a week. Macro x alt 3 days per week
:thumbup:

7. Water change regime.
70% on Sundays - although this is a new regime. previously it would have been circa 90l every other week.
So good ATM, but was only doing 25% WC fortnightly :thumbdown:

Any attempts to try small leave and carpeting plants has seen them melt away/die off
This could be CO2 related , inadequate flow/fluctuating [CO2]

Whats the output from the pump on the sump and what type of return do you have on the tank - spraybar, lily pipe etc
 

klolyn

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Location
London, UK
Whats the output from the pump on the sump and what type of return do you have on the tank - spraybar, lily pipe etc
i can't specify the flow from the pump, its quite strong and i have a Co2Art atomiser in place - with 1.5m length to standard outlet spray nozzle in tank
 

klolyn

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16 Feb 2019
Messages
38
Location
London, UK
Thanks all. noted and i will make changes......

Have you done a pH profile? To check the [CO2] is relatively stable for first 4-5 hours from lights on
when does CO2 come on/off
Lights ramp up at 0800/0900 and ramp down from 1800/2000. Co2 on at 0500 and off at 1800.

I am going to change this now to 1000 on and 1800 ramp down (take out the break)....with Co2 on at 0800 and off at 1700 (8 Hours Max) i will tune up the bubble counter a bit too

Its sparsley planted as historically if i put loads of amazons etc in there, they all die off, I'm wanting to make sure the current lot show signs of being in the correct environment, with the correct light/Co2 balance, before laying out for more "easy" plants.

I will stay with the EI dosing regime at the moment and see how the tweak in photo period/Co2 is over the next week or so...

Will update here for your thoughts.

Any other pearls of wisdom greatfully received....

Keith
 

Zeus.

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Yorkshire,UK
i can't specify the flow from the pump, its quite strong
Sorry 'quite strong' is no help at all :arghh: whats the pumps make and model?? Flow is 'KING' in the CO2 injected tank so if we cant access your flow :banghead:

With 400L tank 2hrs for tank to reach a peak [CO2] is a little on the lean side IMO, three hours would be better. A pH profile would be better still
 

klolyn

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16 Feb 2019
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Location
London, UK
Fortunately, the pump label was just legible, a TMC Powerpump 4000 and is rated at 3800 Litres / 835 Gallons Per Hour (which i have now noted for records) and is set to max, i also have a powerhead above the return nozzle too. i can make out the bubble mist being sent right across the tank. Co2 timer now set to 3 hours pre lamps on. With a JBL drop test kit, I read the result as PH6.5 to 7 (the Co2 having been on for most of the day - though I have now upped the bubble count since the posts above). i have a new (2 days old) electronic PH tester, but I have to go get some ionised water to calibrate it. So 6.5/7 is my best guestimate against the chart at the moment.

Keith
 

Zeus.

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The pH reading is irrelevant IMO its about how much it changes from lights on till CO2 off

what type of return do you have on the tank - spraybar, lily pipe etc
As the type of return makes a big difference to the flow/turnover in the tank
 

jaypeecee

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Bracknell
...i have a new (2 days old) electronic PH tester, but I have to go get some ionised water to calibrate it.Keith
Hi @klolyn / Keith,

I suspect you meant 'de-ionised' water. But, it's not possible to calibrate a pH meter using de-ionised water. In order to do this, you would need to use pH buffer solutions. Which pH tester did you purchase (manufacturer and model number)?

JPC
 

klolyn

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Location
London, UK
The pH reading is irrelevant IMO its about how much it changes from lights on till CO2 off
i expect to get distilled water tomorrow, to flash up the electronic PH tester, will then report reading before CO2 comes on and again just before the off....
 

JoshP12

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8 Dec 2019
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Canada
For your reference on lighting, I found this: https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...parison-fluval-fresh-plant-2-0-fixture-4.html (I know from another forum but it has the PAR values for your light). That may shed some light on whether or not light is the issue or not + you have the aquasky as well.

My experience with that kind of output (for CO2 distribution + general high turnover, low velocity flow) was not so good :( - I fiddled with it ... I went so far as doing that ridiculous lilly pipe re-enactment in the photo below - and it was better than that type of output, but I wouldn't advise anyone to do it -- I can say that since changing that output to a spray bar, I have noticed a huge improvement in the overall health of my tank.

upload_2020-4-29_20-16-27.png


I used this video as a model for the spray bar:


Cheers,
Josh
 

kilnakorr

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16 Mar 2020
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Denmark
I can say that since changing that output to a spray bar, I have noticed a huge improvement in the overall health of my tank.
What filter are you using to run the spraybar and how big is your tank?
From the picture it looks like you had lots of powerheads. You still use those along with the spraybar?
 

foxfish

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Guernsey
Hi Kieth, 400lt is never going to be easy to get right without a bit of trial and error but definitely possible and you now have the backing of people who have mastered the art!
Starting with your opening question though, as long as you formula is correct then EI wont be the problem.
In my opinion your issue will be CO2 related or more precisely you plants are not absorbing enough to match your light source.
The overall idea is to offer enough C02 and distribute it equally amongst all the plants in a manner that the plants can use it and without waisting to much back into the atmosphere!

So although there are lots of basics to apply like PH profiles, correct flow the right amount of light, there are lots of other criteria like maintenance, water changing and generally being virulent and watching the tank in detail.
It some ways a big tank will be easier to keep on track due to the large volume of water staying more stable than a small tank but first of all you need to get it stable and running smoothly.

So as has already been suggested, we need to look at flow and C02 distribution, can we see you filter and pipework with the atomiser in shot?
It may be possible to vastly improve you flow without replacing the pump.
Also a Full PH profile will be required and probably repeated several times, this is time consuming but very helpful.
 

klolyn

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Messages
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Location
London, UK
I suspect you meant 'de-ionised' water. But, it's not possible to calibrate a pH meter using de-ionised water. In order to do this, you would need to use pH buffer solutions. Which pH tester did you purchase (manufacturer and model number)?
Doh, correct, i meant distilled. I was trying to make it myself, but it is too much of a phaff.

The pen is unbranded....and came with PH6.86 and 4.0 powders. i have some JBL 4.00 and 7.00 buffer solutions from an old system - could i use them, calibrating it to 7.00 vice 6.86?

upload_2020-4-30_12-10-1.png
 

klolyn

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Location
London, UK
Hi. thanks for the comment. I have attached a photo of the pump (and a few K1) chamber - there is approx 2m of 16/22 hose from the pump out the back of the cab via the FE bottle to the outlet. The atomiser is in the sump chamber with the pump. I extended the pipe entering the tank to lower the return nozzle which i think helps direct the mist at a lower level aiding distribution. I'm a little limited in what i can do at the return end as the tank has only small enter point in the corner (has frame and glass sliding panels across the top) but a spraybar could be fettled across the end panel. I'm content the pump has the umph to circulate the tank ok, i would add another powerhead to the front corner to assist water flow if it is required.
 

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Zeus.

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The pen is unbranded....and came with PH6.86 and 4.0 powders. i have some JBL 4.00 and 7.00 buffer solutions from an old system - could i use them, calibrating it to 7.00 vice 6.86?
Use to have one of them myself :D. I would use those buffers it will be fine, as the actual reading is irrelevant IMO, its how much it changes once lights come on that counts.
 
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