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Dosing Fe ( Iron ) ?

Graeme Edwards

Founder
Joined
21 Jun 2007
Messages
1,158
Location
Wirral/Chester Cheshire.
Hey guys,

Got thinking about Iron. Back in the good old days when everything was black and white and people talked funny - What'oh. The only real plant food was Iron for aquatic plants. Things have changed some and I was wondering who doses it and how much is enough or to much. Is it even needed?

My experience with Iron have been varied. I know some plants need good iron concentrations for good color.
Ive had occasions when adding Iron had cause, or should I say, seems to have caused algae blooms in various forms.

Ive started dosing ADA ECA (Iron) in the 1-2-GROW tank to get the Alternantheria to color up, and it seems to be doing the trick, but at 2 drops, this could be lean, or could cause me problems, im yet to see.

What are your thoughts and experiences?

Cheers.
 
I'd also like to find this out peoples thoughts. Tom Barr seems to be advising people to dose Iron more - i've been trawling through the Barr Report forums recently!

Would any other Iron product do the same job as the ECA? I'd be interested to see if there are any differences when adding these products like ECA, Green Gain, Phyton Git etc on top of the basic ferts to see if they really are effective. If they are worth adding on top, then I might try a cheaper alternative (particularly Fe)

Tom
 
Green gain works, it really does.Ive had dormant moss for months, then within days of using green gain, I got tight bright shoots. Its great for getting plants to bud up after a trim too. If you only buy one, buy this one.

Phyton Git ( stupid name ) also works. It acts in the same was as EasyCarbo on algae. Plants like Riccardia and fissidins take a serious nock when using Phyton Git.

ECA im yet to judge, and green bacter is almost a wish and a prayer, but I still use it.
 
You have a number of Fe chelates to pick and chose or make a cocktail.

DTPA and gluconates are the two other chelates not used quite as much as the cheapo ETDA.

Gluc is pretty weak and does not last long, daily or softer waters, this is good.
DTPA is excellent for longer term or errant dosing or med hard tap water.
Stronger bond, last a few days in solution.

Fairly cheap stuff in the dry form, add to DI/RO water, add some Excel/glutaraldahyde etc.....ready to go.

I can make some and sell it to you for ADA's price if you want :rolleyes:

Fe is Fe is Fe.
Does not matter if ADA has their label, plants all grow for the same reasons.
I have no issues with moss also, perhaps stopping it from growing in a few tanks, Fissidens for that matter also.

There's no "trick", magic in a bottle.

Dupla pull this same marketing scheme 25 years ago and with Fe.
A few folks have been around that long, and few post still.

Ferts is ferts :idea:
Glutaraldhyde is ......well...you get the idea.........

Regards,
Tom Barr
 
Graeme Edwards said:
Ive started dosing ADA ECA (Iron) in the 1-2-GROW tank to get the Alternantheria to color up, and it seems to be doing the trick, but at 2 drops, this could be lean, or could cause me problems, im yet to see.

cheers Graeme ;)
You can try to increase the ammount for a real red, but slowly. For a small tank like yours algae comes quickly with a bit of an overdose. However real red comes with additional dosage to the basic.
 
Fairly cheap stuff in the dry form, add to DI/RO water, add some Excel/glut

Ferts is ferts :idea:
Glutaraldhyde is ......well...you get the idea.........

Regards,
Tom Barr[/quote]

Hi Tom
How much Excel/Easycarb/glut do we need to add to 250ml of Fe solution to make up a batch.
Regards
hoggie
 
Hi all,
Tom is right, it is all just Fe. DPTA is slightly better than EDTA for the reason quoted, but there isn't much in it.
The iron in Fe -EDTA is very tightly chelated (it is the most tightly bonded ion) but that bond is photo-degradable, meaning that Fe ions become available in the presence of light.

The problem is that a lot of iron compounds are insoluble. This is why we need to chelate Fe, if we add it as a chloride or sulphate, as soon as it dissociates it forms new compounds, with the free iron ions bonding with phosphorus to form insoluble Fe phosphate complexes etc. As well as DPTA/EDTA a lot of organic carbon compounds will naturally chelate some iron.

You can get toxic levels of Fe (especially at low pH), but it is quite difficult to do.

cheers Darrel
 
I've never dosed Fe as a supplement to what's already provided in a comprehensive all-in-one fert i.e. Tropica or Easy Life. When I dosed dry chemicals I relied on the CSM+B trace mix.

However, I am currently running a Dutch tank with lots of stems - some red, so maybe I should consider more Fe...

Interesting.
 
So if I am understanding this right, you need to add DPTA or EDTA to dry Fe mix to chelate it. When it is chelated, it can't react with other elements, but is still available to plants? Or does it have to break down to be available to plants?

We did go through all this at college, but I can't say it would have been one of my favourite lectures - 4 hour plant lectures on Thursday mornings, mainly based on the idea that nutrients = algae and the best way to divide a Pseudocorus... yay.

Tom
 
Wow, your all getting way over my head here, not doubt many others too. You science bods loose 90% of people once you start using acronyms and talking techno babble.

Is there no normal way of saying how much is enough and how much is too much?

I wish a was I as as clever as all that science stuff, but hey, my strength is my creativity.

Cheers.
 
lol. I know how to grow too, but some people hate it when you do it your way and it works. People love telling you your wrong dont they, lol.

Im easy, Im happy doing it the way it works for me.
 
Graeme Edwards said:
but some people hate it when you do it your way and it works

I wouldn't say that. I think many people think and know there are cheaper alternatives. that's all. I can do anything you do for a fraction of the cost. ;)
 
Hi all,
you need to add DPTA or EDTA to dry Fe mix to chelate it. When it is chelated, it can't react with other elements, but is still available to plants? Or does it have to break down to be available to plants?
Yes, honestly it is easy enough and not too technical. If you start with standard Na-EDTA you can make your own FeEDTA, because EDTA has a much stronger affinity for iron than it does for sodium (or any other metal). Fe EDTA is not stable in light, so it will degrade, and it is only then that the iron becomes available to the plants (they can only take up ions in solution). Any iron that is not taken taken up by plants will tend to form other compounds, especially at pH7 or above.
It's easiest and cheapest to use Ferric sulphate as your iron source and EDTA.

I would only go down this route if I had huge aquariums, this is because buying the "trace elements mix" from "Fluidsensor" or similar is going to be cost effective for most people. A 100g pack of trace elements is only £5, and a kilo £30.

cheers Darrel

These are the recipes for those who want to go DIY.

"Get DTPA, because it is superior to EDTA as a chelator. Get ferric sulfate, FeSO4.7H2O. It is easy to work with because it doesn't absorb water from the air and become slushy. Ferric chloride is horrible in that
respect. Mix a molar eqivalent of the iron sulfate and the DTPA together. The molecular weight of the FeSO4.7H2O is 278.02, and the molecular weight of the DTPA is 393.35. I mix it at 0.01 molar, about 200 mls at a time.
At that strength, 1 ml per gallon of water gives you about 0.15 ppm iron. Two hundred mls of 0.01 molar solution would contain .002 moles of the FeSO4.7H2O, or 0.556 grams(.002 moles x 278.02 grams per mole) and .002
moles of the DTPA, or 0.787 grams(.002 moles x 393.35 grams per mole). Dissolve both the iron and the DTPA, and then heat the mixture to boiling. If mold starts growing in the solution later, you can re-boil, or add some
hydrochloric acid, as does Kevin Conklin to his PMDD recipe. By the way, I once tried to make 0.1 molar FeDTPA, but a good portion precipitated out, when the mixture cooled."

"By dissolving 75 grams of Disodium EDTA into 3L of distilled water. Once the EDTA is COMPLETELY dissolved, you can then add 54 g FeCl3.6H20. Once this is completely dissolved, you can then make the solution up to 4 L. This will give you an FeEDTA stock solution of 50 mM. If you add this stock solution at 0.1 ml per liter you will end up with 0.28 ppm Fe (5 uM). The stock solution should be stored in a dark bottle preferably in the fridge (though this last is not absolutelynecessary). It is likely preferable to add the FeEDTA more than once per week ... I add mine twice per week and Im sure some people add daily ... the reason is that FeEDTA is not stable in light."
 
So if you dose daily, why can't you just dose FeSO4 unchelated? If you kept it in solution with distilled water, would it be that extreme of a reaction when it's added to the tank that the plants don't get a chance to utilise it? I don't understand this molar stuff, so am trying to keep it simple!

Tom
 
Essentially, all we need to know is how much to dose and at what concentration. The reasons for dosing and the effects of it over dosed, or under dosed.

Im not really getting anything from the above information. Its getting to complicated.
 
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