EasyCarbo "Bio" ?

[ZeeDeveel]

EasyCarbo Bio

Anyone know anything about this product? What's in it? Can it be used in addition to EasyCarbo?

 

[MirandaB]

As usual the manufacturer seems to be hiding the relevant information,I suspect it's a similar product to Dennerle Carbo Elixir Bio who also don't disclose the ingredients.
Reading between the lines on the Dennerle blurb perhaps Glucose is involved in it somewhere.

 

[Wookii]

It could also be a similar product to the Microbe-Lift Bio CO2 product that MA carry. That is a fairly viscous dark brown liquid which I believe is concentrated humic and tannic acids with other similarly undisclosed ingredients. @X3NiTH swears by it, and I use it occasionally too, so it would be good to know if the EasyLife product is similar as it’s a hell of a lot cheaper than the Microbe-Lift product.

 

[ZeeDeveel]

How do these sorts of products compare as carbon sources and are they at all toxic?

 

[arcturus]

How do these sorts of products compare as carbon sources and are they at all toxic?

The ingredients of these products are not fully known, so it is not possible to determine what they actually do. Based on safety data sheets, it is known that several ”liquid carbon” products use <glutaraldehyde>. At concentrations below 1% this is used as a powerful disinfectant and biocide and effectively destroys several microorganism, virus, and spores. Above that ratio is becomes <toxic>. In any case, Glutaraldehyde <is not a carbon source>, at least in significant amounts, and it <does not seem to improve plant health>. Glutaraldehyde is effective when applied directly to algae (outside water). However, it is not a selective biocide, so it can possibly damage all organisms inside a tank if dosed directly in the water column at a given concentration. IMO, these liquid carbon products should be used exclusively against algae when there is no other option and not in the water column.

 

[Wookii]

The ingredients of these products are not fully known, so it is not possible to determine what they actually do. Based on safety data sheets, it is known that several ”liquid carbon” products use <glutaraldehyde>. At concentrations below 1% this is used as a powerful disinfectant and biocide and effectively destroys several microorganism, virus, and spores. Above that ratio is becomes <toxic>. In any case, Glutaraldehyde <is not a carbon source>, at least in significant amounts, and it <does not seem to improve plant health>. Glutaraldehyde is effective when applied directly to algae (outside water). However, it is not a selective biocide, so it can possibly damage all organisms inside a tank if dosed directly in the water column at a given concentration. IMO, these liquid carbon products should be used exclusively against algae when there is no other option and not in the water column.

I think the point of these “Bio” CO2 based products is that they are not Glut based.

 

[arcturus]

It could also be a similar product to the Microbe-Lift Bio CO2 product that MA carry. That is a fairly viscous dark brown liquid which I believe is concentrated humic and tannic acids with other similarly undisclosed ingredients. @X3NiTH swears by it, and I use it occasionally too, so it would be good to know if the EasyLife product is similar as it’s a hell of a lot cheaper than the Microbe-Lift product.

EasyCarbo is similar to Seachem Excel and contains Glutaraldehyde. We do not know what is in EasyCarbo Bio.

Microbe-Lift Bio CO2 does not contain Glutaraldehyde (based on the available safety sheet) and the product description claims that carbon is derived from microbial sources and, as you said, it also contains humic and tannic acids.

 

[arcturus]

I think the point of these “Bio” CO2 based products is that they are not Glut based.

These companies (and Microbe-Lift is an exception) have self-created a marketing problem. After advertising the (false) benefits of glut-based “liquid carbon” for years, now they come with another magic CO2 product, that has the advantage of not having glut..

 

[jaypeecee]

I suspect it's a similar product to Dennerle Carbo Elixir Bio who also don't disclose the ingredients.

Hi @MirandaB

I used the above product for a few weeks in one of my tanks. Never again. It developed a film on the water surface that resembled a drum skin. Poured the remainder of the bottle away. It also failed to fertilize my plants. Waste of money.

JPC

 

[PARAGUAY]

I have used the Dennerle l liked the fact it doesn't contain any toxic additives as mentioned by @Wookii . Didn't have what @JPC describes but came to conclusion my plants get on fine without it AFAICT

 

[Wookii]

These companies (and Microbe-Lift is an exception) have self-created a marketing problem. After advertising the (false) benefits of glut-based “liquid carbon” for years, now they come with another magic CO2 product, that has the advantage of not having glut..

They are like a lot of products in fishing keeping unfortunately - a solution in search of a problem.

I mainly add the Microbe-Lift product - and only add it occasionally - because I know it’s adding a load of beneficial tannic and humic acids, which promote the health of my livestock. I’m not convinced it really makes a significant difference to the availability of CO2 to the plants.

 

[Ria95]

As long as manufacturers do not disclose (willingly or forced) the contents of their products it's hard to confidently tell the active ingredient or to compare them. One can test and quantify the ingredients but costs for a good analysis and interpretation of the analysis don't make it worth it for the individual. Based on previous MSDS, glutaraldehyde is part of Excel, other liquid carbon solutions ...who can tell: molasses , citric acid, ethanol etc. The 'Bio' tag is pure marketing --- Magic water vs Magic water 'Bio'

We can however see the effects of adding the solutions... no change in the drop checker= no or very very low CO2, damage to cells /algae and plants (vals for example). There have been some good experiments with 'liquid carbon' showing no significant improvement in plant growth. After all we that's the main outcome we are interested in.

I agree with PARAGUAY's conclusion, plants get on fine without it and would add they don't do better with it. Better places to donate money.

 

[The grumpy one]

I use Dennerle Carbo Elixir BIO. It does not contain Glutaraldehyde which is why I chose this product. I even went and got a safety data sheet from them to check that there was no significant amounts of any dangerous chemicals. There is not and by law they have to say on the safety data sheet. See attached. Unlike Dennerle Carbo booster max, which is a very scary safety data sheet. See attached
My plants are doing quite well, very stable tank and so do not want to experiment without it.
I think, if and when I get round to starting a new tank, I will try and not use it. Transfer cuttings from present tank to new one and see if there is any difference in growth.

 

[arcturus]

I use Dennerle Carbo Elixir BIO. It does not contain Glutaraldehyde which is why I chose this product. I even went and got a safety data sheet from them to check that there was no significant amounts of any dangerous chemicals. There is not and by law they have to say on the safety data sheet. See attached. Unlike Dennerle Carbo booster max, which is a very scary safety data sheet. See attached
My plants are doing quite well, very stable tank and so do not want to experiment without it.
I think, if and when I get round to starting a new tank, I will try and not use it. Transfer cuttings from present tank to new one and see if there is any difference in growth.

The "scary" data sheet is the same as in other product that uses glutaraldehyde

Just be aware that the bio or the glut version will not be adding relevant amounts of CO2 to the water. You should be able to get the same amount just with good surface agitation. The bio version can be a mix of nutrients, bacteria, and acids that can actually benefit the plants and the rest of the ecosystem - but it would be much better if these companies disclosed what are the main active ingredients of their products.

 

[X3NiTH]

Microbe-Lift BioCO2 is Fulvic and Humic acid based and contains no Tannic Acid as far as I’m aware (I believe Tannic Acid would moderate the pH at the amounts I am dosing and there is no shift in pH after dosing, it would also tint the water and I have no Tannic tinting present), the amount I dose is 1ml/10L every other day (I use the BioCO2 instead of water as the solvent to dose my macro salts).

Both Fulvic acid and Humic acid have chelatory properties so if the molecules come across free metals then they can bind with them and thus make it a more appetising meal for plants, the cherry on top of the cake!

Humic and Fulvic acids are long chain carbon molecules derived from dead plant matter, plants are exceptionally good at thriving on the remnants of dead or dying plants, one plants misfortune is another downstream plants gain.

There is Zero CO2 in any liquid carbon product however if the molecule containing carbon happens to be feasted upon by a plant then it’s up to the plant to decide how to utilise that carbon, it can either use the carbon directly for incorporation into tissue to build structure or it can fix it with oxygen and gain access to gaseous CO2.

Glute based liquid carbon supplements usually have warning symbols on their labels and poisons advice, Humic and Fulvic based carbon supplements have none of that. Ethanol based carbon supplements will come with warning labels also but should also state on the label that it’s an alcohol based supplement (RedSea NO3-PO4-X is a carbon supplement product for marine tank algae management 25% Denatured Ethanol, the warning label is for Flammable Liquid and Vapour).

You can DIY your own Humic and Fulvic based liquid carbon by collecting and concentrating the juices at the bottom of a compost heap!

Everyone’s cloning everyone else’s BioCO2, there’s likely very little difference between them all unless they state something else on the label that differentiates it to all the others.

 

[Wookii]

Microbe-Lift BioCO2 is Fulvic and Humic acid based and contains no Tannic Acid as far as I’m aware

My mistake, I had assumed that was the source of the dark brown colouration. It does tint my water for around a day or so when I dose it.

 

[X3NiTH]

It does tint the water ever so slightly but not to the same as tannins would, it’s a large molecule so eventually it will all end up in the substrate to be broken down or in the bottom of a canister filter. Dosage instructions are dose 2ml/100L every one to two days, I’m dosing 1ml/10L so 5x the recommended dose. Here’s a picture just now showing the water tinting I have (this tank is dosed EI ferts and hasn’t had a waterchange in a year), the first image is phone flash straight through the glass (tank lights are off at the moment) to capture the white poly board background, the second image is the same image but I’ve edited to desaturate the colour for the whitest portion of poly board to show comparison as if there was no tint to the water.

If there is Tannic build up over the year then it’s more a light Jasmine Tea than Builders Tea, to be fair though it looks more like tinting from the Iron in my Micro.

Those Crypts have been in those pots for over a year and they haven’t melted once, not grown much either but that’s because the Vallis is an outrageous light hog coiled on the surface like a snake (an inch wide and about 2m long in a 50L tank). Tank gets injected CO2 @30ppm also.