EI dosing please help

Discussion in 'Aquarium Fert Dosing' started by Alex white, 10 Mar 2019.

  1. Alex white

    Alex white Newly Registered

    Messages:
    6
    Location:
    Croydon
    Hi everyone this is my first question so bare with me. I have been doing co2 planted tanks now for 2 years. Sometimes it goes great and sometimes lots of algae issues. I’ve tried eI dosing before and gave up and went back to expensive water products. In Lehmans terms Would someone be able to just write me a recipe for what I need to by and how much I need to mix for a 500ml bottle. I understand trace is just one packet of salts. I have other salts at home but not the measurements I need . I have a 125ltr tank with co2 and good flow
     
  2. Kalum

    Kalum Member

    Messages:
    573
    Location:
    Scotland
    Alex white likes this.
  3. oscarlloydjohn

    oscarlloydjohn Member

    Messages:
    201
    Location:
    Bristol, UK
    I would recommend a commercial micro such as Flourish or Profito in place of the aquariumplantfoodUK trace.

    Have a look at https://rotalabutterfly.com/nutrient-calculator.php for an easy way to calculate dosages.

    Any other questions feel free to ask

    Oscar :)
     
    Alex white likes this.
  4. Kalum

    Kalum Member

    Messages:
    573
    Location:
    Scotland
    Oscar is right if you have hard water, if you have soft water it's a bit more forgiving. Still I'm tempted to try another trace such as profito anyway

    I've bought some salts from other places recently and found them to dissolve better than the ones from APF (specifically magnesium), I think there's better quality out there but it's an easy one stop shop to point people towards and it'll do a good job
     
    Alex white likes this.
  5. Alex white

    Alex white Newly Registered

    Messages:
    6
    Location:
    Croydon
    Yes I do have hard water. So don’t you trace salts. Just use profito every other day. And the other salts dissolved in boiled water and put in to my 500ml bottle. I’ll have a look at the calculator hopefully I can get my head around it . Also I have bottles of flourish potassium and iron will I not need to dose these with EI dosing. Trying to read my plants and to know what there needing is what I’m finding difficult that’s why I think EI is for me. Thanks for the information and I’m sure I’ll bug you again soon
     
  6. foxfish

    foxfish Member

    Messages:
    4,293
    Location:
    Guernsey
    Nice and simple....


     
    dw1305 likes this.
  7. Zeus.

    Zeus. Member

    Messages:
    1,761
    Location:
    Yorkshire,UK
    I have used APF trace and TNC trace - would using Flourish or Profito be any better and get better results as the cost difference is Massive
     
  8. oscarlloydjohn

    oscarlloydjohn Member

    Messages:
    201
    Location:
    Bristol, UK
    Cost difference is massive but for a smaller tank isn't too bad. Profito contains more micronutrients than TNC or APF and it uses multiple chelators so works in all types of water.

    Oscar :)
     
  9. dw1305

    dw1305 Expert

    Messages:
    7,765
    Location:
    nr Bath
    Hi all,
    There can't really be any difference in their solubility, it may be to do with the crystal size (bigger crystals will take a bit longer, as will any lumps).

    Whatever has caused it, won't make any difference in use, it is an extremely soluble salt.

    The only other option is the "water of crystallization" number (MgSO4.nH2O). Usually it would be the heptahydrate (.7H2O), but if it ihas been stored dry and was originally anhydrous (MgSO4), or the mono-hydrate (MgSO4.H2O), it would take a bit longer to go into solution, because it will become more fully hydrated before it dissolves.
    That would be a reason for using Profito, but it is only really iron (Fe) you need to worry about (if you have hard water), so an alternative iron chelator like FeDTPA etc would be a cheaper option

    cheers Darrel
     
    Oldguy, Zeus. and oscarlloydjohn like this.
  10. Zeus.

    Zeus. Member

    Messages:
    1,761
    Location:
    Yorkshire,UK
    mine does take some time to disolve but I am adding a lot of MgSO4 to my Macro mix

    Think I might need some for my hard water in my micro mix. pH of tank was dropping below 7 at first so was using seachem iron, but the tank never drops below 7 so it clouds up if I use seachem iron, so some FeDTPA in my micro mix might resolve the pinholes I get in my Hygrophila pinnatifida !!!

    Getting Fe right does seem to be tricky with pH and water hardness affecting Fe equilibrium constant and hence the Fe available for plants to use :rolleyes:
     
  11. Alex white

    Alex white Newly Registered

    Messages:
    6
    Location:
    Croydon
    Thank you for all your reply’s this does make a lot more sense now. Would it be easier fo growing plants if I went RO water? Or is there a lot more water science to deal with? Easy or not ??
     
  12. Jayefc1

    Jayefc1 Member

    Messages:
    434
    Location:
    Swadlincote
    Hi Alex I've just started making an all in one mix from James planted tank and it has almost exact same % as TNC complete I used APF salts and trace with 5ml added seachams iron been using for 3 weeks now seems to be doing really well
    http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone
     
    dw1305 likes this.
  13. dw1305

    dw1305 Expert

    Messages:
    7,765
    Location:
    nr Bath
    Hi all,
    You might be getting up towards the solubility limit for all your salts, even though they are individually soluble as you get towards a fully saturated solution they will take longer to dissolve.
    Swings and roundabouts really, most plants (and fish) are fine in hard water, and there is the additonal waste, time and expense involved with making RO.

    I have hard tap water (most people in the S & E of the UK do) but I've always <"used rain-water"> in the tanks.

    If I used our tap water I would keep different fish, use a different chelator for iron and use a dechlorinator but otherwise everything would be the same.

    cheers Darrel
     
    Jayefc1 likes this.
  14. Zeus.

    Zeus. Member

    Messages:
    1,761
    Location:
    Yorkshire,UK
    @dw1305

    Have just checked out a few FeDTPA possibility's eg Solufeed Fe 11 DTPA, and it says 'Practical pH stability range: 4 – 7.5 (in aqueous solution).' So with my tank target pH is 7.4 and night time pH is 8.5 or higher. Which suggests to me that it will/may precipitate out of solution at the working pH of my tank
     
  15. dw1305

    dw1305 Expert

    Messages:
    7,765
    Location:
    nr Bath
    Hi all,
    It will precipitate out, but plants don't need a huge amount of iron, so they are probably going to get enough iron from the FeDTPA.

    If you don't have a <"floating plant"> Rotala rotundifolia would seem to be a <"pretty good indicator for Fe deficiency problems">. I haven't grown any of the Rotala species, so I don't have any practical experience of them.

    [​IMG]

    cheers Darrel
     
  16. Oldguy

    Oldguy Member

    Messages:
    238
    Location:
    Gloucestershire, UK
    When considering the stability of transition metal chelates, it is not just pH and photostability that should be considered but ion exchange between solvated ions such as Ca2+ and Mg2+ and the transition metal ion to ligand bond in the chelated compound. There are lists of relative stabilities on the web.

    I keep trace mixes such as Fe and other trace elements as chelated compounds in aqueous solution in dark bottles but without any other chemicals (a tiny amount of KHSO4 to stabilize pH excepted). When added to the tank I would expect Fe and other chelated metals ions to come out of chelation and be available to plants as simple solvated ions. I use Sulufeed Fe13EDTA and TMAG to provide iron and other trace metals, the latter is longer available but it has been replaced by a better product. Many are available with different chelatating compounds and as potassium salts instead of sodium salts and in small Kg amounts. I have, what I have, and then they were only sold by the sack when I and Adam were lads.

    In hard water, Fe and other transition metal ions will be replaced from chelation by solvated Ca an Mg ions. The half life of the simple solvated Fe and other transition metal ions in a bare dark container will be pH dependent. However we aim for these simple salts to be absorbed by our plants and this should be the dominant factor in determining the fate of such metals. If not biologically absorbed their usual fate will be as a complex mix of oxides, hydroxides and phosphates, typically not biologically available. Over more than a ten year period I have never noticed iron precipitation in my tanks (moderately hard water) but in the field I have found plenty of gelatinous iron precipitates from iron rich rocks and from mine outflows into receiving waters with both high and low calcium contents. [Some locations in the UK have complex geologies]. Since going 'high tec' I cut 50:50 with rain water to give moderately soft water but I add a little magnesium sulphate to push the hardness up a little.

    The EI dosing regime takes this into account with alternate dosing days, thus giving plants the opportunity to absorb different nutrients over a 24hr period. I always assume that Fe and other transition metals will only be available for about 24 hours. Hence regular dosing with dilute solutions.
     
    dw1305 and Zeus. like this.
  17. Zeus.

    Zeus. Member

    Messages:
    1,761
    Location:
    Yorkshire,UK
    Thanks for the detail m8 :thumbup:

    It was quite a significant precipitation when I added seachem iron to to micro EI mix :oops:.

    I must admin I have been 'winging it' using the EI method with excess ferts, but hopefully will get to the bottom of it and need to work though my hardness and pH and work out what is needed for my tank.

    Thanks for the input/advise Guys :thumbup:
     
  18. Oldguy

    Oldguy Member

    Messages:
    238
    Location:
    Gloucestershire, UK
    Were these mixed together in you tank or mixed in a container. I am not familiar with trade products (to tight with my money) and I came to chelated dosing long before this group was up and running. I acquired samples from the UK manufacturer that made transition metal complexes for the world. However the chemical industry went through major restructuring so free 'research samples' dried up. Thankfully the gap has been filled by horticultural suppliers and retailers.
     
    dw1305 likes this.
  19. Zeus.

    Zeus. Member

    Messages:
    1,761
    Location:
    Yorkshire,UK
    I Made up my Macro and Micro mixes using salts to within the EI range then dosed Macros one day then Micros the other, added so Seachem Iron extra to my Micro mix, cant remember how much and on Micro day when I got home milky white tank.
     
  20. Zeus.

    Zeus. Member

    Messages:
    1,761
    Location:
    Yorkshire,UK
    turns out a seem to have lots of these - water report which says its Very Hard

    upload_2019-3-12_20-5-51.png

    Thats 127ppm Ca and 5.4ppm Mg thats even before I added the MgSO4 in the EI dose. From my reading around recently dont think I really need to add that much MgSO4 if any !!!
     
    Oldguy likes this.

Share This Page

Facebook Page
Twitter Page
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice