EI dosing please help

Alex white

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Hi everyone this is my first question so bare with me. I have been doing co2 planted tanks now for 2 years. Sometimes it goes great and sometimes lots of algae issues. I’ve tried eI dosing before and gave up and went back to expensive water products. In Lehmans terms Would someone be able to just write me a recipe for what I need to by and how much I need to mix for a 500ml bottle. I understand trace is just one packet of salts. I have other salts at home but not the measurements I need . I have a 125ltr tank with co2 and good flow
 

Kalum

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I would recommend a commercial micro such as Flourish or Profito in place of the aquariumplantfoodUK trace.

Have a look at https://rotalabutterfly.com/nutrient-calculator.php for an easy way to calculate dosages.

Any other questions feel free to ask

Oscar :)
Oscar is right if you have hard water, if you have soft water it's a bit more forgiving. Still I'm tempted to try another trace such as profito anyway

I've bought some salts from other places recently and found them to dissolve better than the ones from APF (specifically magnesium), I think there's better quality out there but it's an easy one stop shop to point people towards and it'll do a good job
 

Alex white

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Yes I do have hard water. So don’t you trace salts. Just use profito every other day. And the other salts dissolved in boiled water and put in to my 500ml bottle. I’ll have a look at the calculator hopefully I can get my head around it . Also I have bottles of flourish potassium and iron will I not need to dose these with EI dosing. Trying to read my plants and to know what there needing is what I’m finding difficult that’s why I think EI is for me. Thanks for the information and I’m sure I’ll bug you again soon
 

Zeus.

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would recommend a commercial micro such as Flourish or Profito in place of the aquariumplantfoodUK trace
I have used APF trace and TNC trace - would using Flourish or Profito be any better and get better results as the cost difference is Massive
 
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I have used APF trace and TNC trace - would using Flourish or Profito be any better and get better results as the cost difference is Massive
Cost difference is massive but for a smaller tank isn't too bad. Profito contains more micronutrients than TNC or APF and it uses multiple chelators so works in all types of water.

Oscar :)
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
found them to dissolve better than the ones from APF (specifically magnesium)
There can't really be any difference in their solubility, it may be to do with the crystal size (bigger crystals will take a bit longer, as will any lumps).

Whatever has caused it, won't make any difference in use, it is an extremely soluble salt.

The only other option is the "water of crystallization" number (MgSO4.nH2O). Usually it would be the heptahydrate (.7H2O), but if it ihas been stored dry and was originally anhydrous (MgSO4), or the mono-hydrate (MgSO4.H2O), it would take a bit longer to go into solution, because it will become more fully hydrated before it dissolves.
Profito contains more micronutrients than TNC or APF and it uses multiple chelators so works in all types of water.
That would be a reason for using Profito, but it is only really iron (Fe) you need to worry about (if you have hard water), so an alternative iron chelator like FeDTPA etc would be a cheaper option

cheers Darrel
 

Zeus.

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it may be to do with the crystal size (bigger crystals will take a bit longer, as will any lumps).
mine does take some time to disolve but I am adding a lot of MgSO4 to my Macro mix

but it is only really iron (Fe) you need to worry about (if you have hard water), so an alternative iron chelator like FeDTPA etc
Think I might need some for my hard water in my micro mix. pH of tank was dropping below 7 at first so was using seachem iron, but the tank never drops below 7 so it clouds up if I use seachem iron, so some FeDTPA in my micro mix might resolve the pinholes I get in my Hygrophila pinnatifida !!!

Getting Fe right does seem to be tricky with pH and water hardness affecting Fe equilibrium constant and hence the Fe available for plants to use :rolleyes:
 

Alex white

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Thank you for all your reply’s this does make a lot more sense now. Would it be easier fo growing plants if I went RO water? Or is there a lot more water science to deal with? Easy or not ??
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
mine does take some time to disolve but I am adding a lot of MgSO4 to my Macro mix
You might be getting up towards the solubility limit for all your salts, even though they are individually soluble as you get towards a fully saturated solution they will take longer to dissolve.
Would it be easier fo growing plants if I went RO water?
Swings and roundabouts really, most plants (and fish) are fine in hard water, and there is the additonal waste, time and expense involved with making RO.

I have hard tap water (most people in the S & E of the UK do) but I've always <"used rain-water"> in the tanks.

If I used our tap water I would keep different fish, use a different chelator for iron and use a dechlorinator but otherwise everything would be the same.

cheers Darrel
 

Zeus.

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@dw1305

Have just checked out a few FeDTPA possibility's eg Solufeed Fe 11 DTPA, and it says 'Practical pH stability range: 4 – 7.5 (in aqueous solution).' So with my tank target pH is 7.4 and night time pH is 8.5 or higher. Which suggests to me that it will/may precipitate out of solution at the working pH of my tank
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
Practical pH stability range: 4 – 7.5 (in aqueous solution).' So with my tank target pH is 7.4 and night time pH is 8.5 or higher. Which suggests to me that it will/may precipitate out of solution at the working pH of my tank
It will precipitate out, but plants don't need a huge amount of iron, so they are probably going to get enough iron from the FeDTPA.

If you don't have a <"floating plant"> Rotala rotundifolia would seem to be a <"pretty good indicator for Fe deficiency problems">. I haven't grown any of the Rotala species, so I don't have any practical experience of them.

d48d04-c2e2-40fc-b21f-c32ea6ba6ce2_zpskwu3q28p-jpg.jpg


cheers Darrel
 

Oldguy

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pH stability range
When considering the stability of transition metal chelates, it is not just pH and photostability that should be considered but ion exchange between solvated ions such as Ca2+ and Mg2+ and the transition metal ion to ligand bond in the chelated compound. There are lists of relative stabilities on the web.

I keep trace mixes such as Fe and other trace elements as chelated compounds in aqueous solution in dark bottles but without any other chemicals (a tiny amount of KHSO4 to stabilize pH excepted). When added to the tank I would expect Fe and other chelated metals ions to come out of chelation and be available to plants as simple solvated ions. I use Sulufeed Fe13EDTA and TMAG to provide iron and other trace metals, the latter is longer available but it has been replaced by a better product. Many are available with different chelatating compounds and as potassium salts instead of sodium salts and in small Kg amounts. I have, what I have, and then they were only sold by the sack when I and Adam were lads.

In hard water, Fe and other transition metal ions will be replaced from chelation by solvated Ca an Mg ions. The half life of the simple solvated Fe and other transition metal ions in a bare dark container will be pH dependent. However we aim for these simple salts to be absorbed by our plants and this should be the dominant factor in determining the fate of such metals. If not biologically absorbed their usual fate will be as a complex mix of oxides, hydroxides and phosphates, typically not biologically available. Over more than a ten year period I have never noticed iron precipitation in my tanks (moderately hard water) but in the field I have found plenty of gelatinous iron precipitates from iron rich rocks and from mine outflows into receiving waters with both high and low calcium contents. [Some locations in the UK have complex geologies]. Since going 'high tec' I cut 50:50 with rain water to give moderately soft water but I add a little magnesium sulphate to push the hardness up a little.

The EI dosing regime takes this into account with alternate dosing days, thus giving plants the opportunity to absorb different nutrients over a 24hr period. I always assume that Fe and other transition metals will only be available for about 24 hours. Hence regular dosing with dilute solutions.
 

Zeus.

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When considering the stability of transition metal chelates, it is not just pH and photostability that should be considered but ion exchange between solvated ions such as Ca2+ and Mg2+ and the transition metal ion to ligand bond in the chelated compound. There are lists of relative stabilities on the web.

I keep trace mixes such as Fe and other trace elements as chelated compounds in aqueous solution in dark bottles but without any other chemicals (a tiny amount of KHSO4 to stabilize pH excepted). When added to the tank I would expect Fe and other chelated metals ions to come out of chelation and be available to plants as simple solvated ions. I use Sulufeed Fe13EDTA and TMAG to provide iron and other trace metals, the latter is longer available but it has been replaced by a better product. Many are available with different chelatating compounds and as potassium salts instead of sodium salts and in small Kg amounts. I have, what I have, and then they were only sold by the sack when I and Adam were lads.

In hard water, Fe and other transition metal ions will be replaced from chelation by solvated Ca an Mg ions. The half life of the simple solvated Fe and other transition metal ions in a bare dark container will be pH dependent. However we aim for these simple salts to be absorbed by our plants and this should be the dominant factor in determining the fate of such metals. If not biologically absorbed their usual fate will be as a complex mix of oxides, hydroxides and phosphates, typically not biologically available. Over more than a ten year period I have never noticed iron precipitation in my tanks (moderately hard water) but in the field I have found plenty of gelatinous iron precipitates from iron rich rocks and from mine outflows into receiving waters with both high and low calcium contents. [Some locations in the UK have complex geologies]. Since going 'high tec' I cut 50:50 with rain water to give moderately soft water but I add a little magnesium sulphate to push the hardness up a little.

The EI dosing regime takes this into account with alternate dosing days, thus giving plants the opportunity to absorb different nutrients over a 24hr period. I always assume that Fe and other transition metals will only be available for about 24 hours. Hence regular dosing with dilute solutions.
Thanks for the detail m8 :thumbup:

Over more than a ten year period I have never noticed iron precipitation in my tanks (moderately hard water)
It was quite a significant precipitation when I added seachem iron to to micro EI mix :oops:.

I must admin I have been 'winging it' using the EI method with excess ferts, but hopefully will get to the bottom of it and need to work though my hardness and pH and work out what is needed for my tank.

Thanks for the input/advise Guys :thumbup:
 

Oldguy

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It was quite a significant precipitation when I added seachem iron to to micro EI mix
Were these mixed together in you tank or mixed in a container. I am not familiar with trade products (to tight with my money) and I came to chelated dosing long before this group was up and running. I acquired samples from the UK manufacturer that made transition metal complexes for the world. However the chemical industry went through major restructuring so free 'research samples' dried up. Thankfully the gap has been filled by horticultural suppliers and retailers.
 

Zeus.

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Were these mixed together in you tank or mixed in a container. I am not familiar with trade products (to tight with my money)
I Made up my Macro and Micro mixes using salts to within the EI range then dosed Macros one day then Micros the other, added so Seachem Iron extra to my Micro mix, cant remember how much and on Micro day when I got home milky white tank.
 

Zeus.

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In hard water, Fe and other transition metal ions will be replaced from chelation by solvated Ca an Mg ions.
turns out a seem to have lots of these - water report which says its Very Hard

upload_2019-3-12_20-5-51.png


Thats 127ppm Ca and 5.4ppm Mg thats even before I added the MgSO4 in the EI dose. From my reading around recently dont think I really need to add that much MgSO4 if any !!!
 

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