EI DOSING USING DRY SALTS

plantbrain

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jonny_ftm said:
Many thanks for clarifying all this

really interesting

Just one question. ADA AS is mineralized N and P while earthworm castings is organic N and P that needs to be mineralized by bacteria for plants to take it

So, at the end, is it really important to add ADA AS to earthworm castings? Which one will last longer? I do think organic soil as it should better keep the nutrients in it and not leach them in water, or am I wrong?
No, ADA As is not mineralized.
That's why it leaches NH4 for a month or so, then the bacteria mineralize it by the end of 3-4 weeks.

I use either ADA As or WC, maybe delta soil. If I want less richness, I add more sand % ratio.
But with ADA AS, I add no sands etc, just straight.

Some tanks use just dolomite white sand for aesthetics, but given a choice, I tend to use both the water and the sediments for nutrients. WC,topsoil, delta soil, cat litters etc, all are more DIY approaches which are cheap. ADA AS is a brand and fairly consistent and needs no sand "cap". No "layering" which turns me off.
So I tend to suggest the ADA more.

However, even ADA suggest layering with Powersand under the AS, which defeats the advantage really.
I suppose it's a hold over from the old days when Amano sold and used PS, but it serves little function after a month or so. Even there, adding some KNO3 does the same type of thing.

Does not hurt, but when it comes up and pulls up, it looks tacky. Cost a bit more etc.
So I do not use it.

ADA AS has a lot of longer term nutrients.
Most are very happy with it.

But you can go the DIY routine, follow the WC article reprint I have on mysite.
Not hard really.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

plantbrain

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ghostsword said:
Tom,

Many thanks for the clarification.

I would have thought that the Amazonian soil to be rich with nutrients, especially with the rainy season creating floods, and with minerals that may be present as the river passes thru its course, eroding rock and through leaching.

If the soil is poor, where would the plants get the nutrients from? Through the leaves?
Everything is recycled rapidly, remove the biomass, you remove the source of nutrients.
Cloud forest and epiphytes are similar, moss recycles and covers everything.
The soil holds very little. Same in nutrient rich ocean gyres, recycling occurs very fast, so if you remove the biomass, not much is left.

Same with cycling in wetlands, remove the plants, you get a foul nutrient laden bacterial soup of stank.
That offers little "environmental services".

A nice natural mature virgin wetland offers a great many things more on all levels.
Wetlands are different, their soil is far richer.

They often are lean in N, but richer in everything else.
This is because wetlands accreate soil and sequester and pile it on, whereas most aerobic soils will break it down and recycle nutrients. Nothing in anaerobic soils can break it down fast, that's why there's all this coal from the ancient swamp forest of the Carboniferous period.

Rather than breaking down into CO2 and being rotted, it's stayed put and hardened into coal, or young coal is: peat, used in the UK, IR, Scotland for fuel. In the Amazon, the water flushes most of this away, and the seasonal drying and flooding washes the soil clean. In the Pantanal, the more stable languid flow allows for more soil to build and accumulate.

NE is good farming due to all that wetland, same with most river deltas in Europe that have been drained.
Even the civilization of man's ancient civilizations are mostly built on wetlands and their rich soils:

Nile river
Eurphtrates
Indus
Ganges
Yellow and the Yangetze
Mekong delta
Mexico
Later, parts of Europe

A few are not, but for good agriculture, you need water and rich soil.

So the use of good soil will indeed help some plants grow, and may allow us to be more relaxed with regards to the dosing on the water column.

For ferns and Anubias, using dry ferts will for sure help, as their roots are exposed.

After all, in their natural habitat the plants would not be getting good nutrients all the time, right?

Maybe one day I will be able to make a trip to the Amazon river to see what sort of environment does the plants live on. :)
Yes, which is why plants take up luxury nutrients, more than they need for growth at first glance for short term experiments, but if you look at the entire life cycle, they often have access to brief periods of rich nutrients, so they need to fatten up to get through the lean times of winter.

So when you take that ppm reading is import through time.
You might miss it during the summer, but hit it if you come right after the first big rain of the season.

Many use poor data from the field to make such assumptions about nutrients in the water column, they are "bad" ecologist :twisted:

If you go, then you will not see much submersed growth, you will see lots of floating weeds.
Got to the Pantanal instead. Make sure to time it right also. Go upstream, way upstream etc. on the edges of the basin. Also, Guyana is awesome! Really nice place.

I think you have a good understanding of the issues here.


Regards,
Tom Barr
 

jonny_ftm

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Thanks Tom, but still didn't get it all.

If ADA AS is not mineralized, then you mean its P and N sources are also organic? N and P are either mineral or organic. So, ADA AS would be organic N and P, coated to lower leaching in water?

Also, based on your expierience, which of them will last longer under near same conditions?

Many thanks again for your info
 

ghostsword

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Many thanks Tom,

So when you take that ppm reading is import through time.
You might miss it during the summer, but hit it if you come right after the first big rain of the season.
Actually this is something I am looking at, I would like to replicate the rainy season, the floods (with lots of nutrients) and the more lean times on my tank. I am only keeping plants that are able to withstand growing part emmersed, so I want to gradually lower the water on the tank by 25%, increasing the lighting period by two hours, and reduce also the intake of nutrients. After a month or two I will raise the water level and increase the dry salts, but reducing the light to just 8 hours a day. I intend to use a 125w vapour arcadia, and my tank is a 120L Juwel.

If you go, then you will not see much submersed growth, you will see lots of floating weeds.
Got to the Pantanal instead. Make sure to time it right also. Go upstream, way upstream etc. on the edges of the basin. Also, Guyana is awesome! Really nice place.
I was going to go to Aquamazonia 2010, as I intended to have a trip to the Amazon river to check plants out, but something else came up and I had to cancel the trip.

I am going to the South Africa in August, and intend to check a couple of rivers on the Western Cape, and as it is winter over there the plants I will see submerged are the ones that have adapted to life underwater, at least for a couple of months. Hopefully will get to go to the Limpopo River, on the Mozambique side.

I may only see Ferns and Anubias, but I am hunting for stem plants, as I know that the Ammannis senegalensis can be seen on the Western Cape.

Will try to take some water samples, as I have a couple of friends that work on the Cape Town University, they might be able to tell me what minerals are on the water. I wonder if I am going to see the ppm that we are placing on the tank.

Thanks,
Luis
 

jonny_ftm

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ghostsword said:
I wonder if I am going to see the ppm that we are placing on the tank.

Thanks,
Luis
If you see those ppm, it only means water is completely polluted by agriculture leachings in soil

In nature, plants take most they need from soil, from their roots
 

plantbrain

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jonny_ftm said:
ghostsword said:
I wonder if I am going to see the ppm that we are placing on the tank.

Thanks,
Luis
If you see those ppm, it only means water is completely polluted by agriculture leachings in soil

In nature, plants take most they need from soil, from their roots
Well, not always, the nicest places I've EVER seen are from the water column mostly........
8c5fa4e0.jpg

redludwigiaIch2008.jpg

CallludEellakeORresized.jpg


Many springs in FL, Brazil(Bonita), Pupu in NZ, San Macros river TX, USA etc..........

They are also fairly rich in CO2, 15-40ppm ranges.
 

Jaap

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1. On day 1 of my new tank should I dose as normal and do the 50% water change by the end of the week or is there something different I should do due to the fact that the plants are not fully grown in the tank.

2. When the p[lants in my tank are fully grown and covered all the substrate and since my tank will only contain a full carpet of Eleocharis Parvula and a few Valisnerias do I need to dose the suggested dosage of micros and macros or will my setup have a lesser requirement? I mean the biomass in there will not be that much.

Thanks.
 

ceg4048

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Re: Re: EI DOSING USING DRY SALTS

Jaap said:
1. On day 1 of my new tank should I dose as normal and do the 50% water change by the end of the week or is there something different I should do due to the fact that the plants are not fully grown in the tank.
There is no need to do anything differently otherwise the method would have a thousand exceptions for all the possible variations on theme. Start on day 1 and follow the plan. This keeps life simple.

Jaap said:
2. When the p[lants in my tank are fully grown and covered all the substrate and since my tank will only contain a full carpet of Eleocharis Parvula and a few Valisnerias do I need to dose the suggested dosage of micros and macros or will my setup have a lesser requirement? I mean the biomass in there will not be that much.
Again, stop complicating your life. Yes there is less biomass but so what? In fact if your flow and distribution are poor you might actually need to dose more. People always try to think of reasons for dosing less because of an ingrained fear of nutrients programmed by The Matrix. The purpose of this method is to free your mind from fear and to free you from the tedium regarding what corrections to make and when to make them. Having more nutrients than you need is never a problem, but having less than you need is always problematic. Therefore if you must err then err on the high side. The only penalty will be that you waste a little bit of nutrients and that some plants will grow more quickly than desired.

Cheers,
 

skeletonw00t

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Can i do small water changes during the week using this scheme!? Or am i limited to just the one!?
 

ceg4048

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Hi,
You can do as many water changes as your heart desires. The idea is to clean the tank and to consistently have clean water. How you accomplish this is up to you.

Cheers,
 

ceg4048

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Well, ...yes, you will. So just add more nutrients after the water change. No big deal. How much more you add will depend on how much water you removed. You don't need to perform any outrageous calculations.

So for example, if you only did half as much a water change as specified in the tutorial (i.e 25% WC as opposed to the specified 50%) then just add back half as much nutrients as what you would have done if you did the full water change. If you only removed a quarter as much water then you only need to replenish 1/4 of the nutrient dosing. Remember that this is not rocket science. it's just like mixing Kool-aid, that's all. You just have to be aware of how much water you are removing and how much powder your baseline calculation indicates to dose so that you can make the adjustments.

Cheers,
 

skeletonw00t

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Ok thanks,

What if however i dosed trace the day before - then i change water & add back in some macro as it that days turn for macro... Will i need to add in some trace too even tho its not its day?

Also wheres cheap to buy dry salts? I am getting through a lot!
 

ceg4048

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Yep, you can add back trace later that day or the next day. When you're doing multiple water changes it really messes up the schedule so it' might be easier to use an all-in-one powder mix or to simply add NPK immediately afterwards and then traces a little bit later in the day/night.

For dry powders please check out sponsor AquariumPlantFoodUK

Cheers,
 

skeletonw00t

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I have the starter kit from there - is there a way i can just mix all the stuff into an all in one mix that i just dose daily? This would be a lot easier for me to fit into my life schedule.

If so what measurements would i use? My tanks 130ltr

Thanks :)
 

skeletonw00t

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Mmm seems a bit complicated & id need to buy more chemicals just to keep it from going bad? Is there a dosing regime where i can dose My EI mixes but just dose the macro. & trace everyday albeit in smaller quantities...
 

ceg4048

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As gmartins says, and as explained on JamesC website (as well as on the APF All-in-one mix page) adding iron products at the same time as phosphate products runs the risk of having the two combine to form precipitates and therefore you risk losing some of both. Only if the water you are adding the ferts to is very acidic can you lower the risk significantly and that's why acids like Vitamin C are added. Adding smaller quantities cannot fix this issue and in fact would make things worse, so either to live with the risk and just add NPK+traces at the same time, or you lower the risk by using an all-in-one mix, which is what the APF product is that I gave the link to, so you wouldn't have to incurr any more complication than adding water to that mix.

I'm sorry but you cannot have your cake and eat it too. Try adding NPK and traces at the same time and see how it goes. It may work for you without any other adjustments.

Cheers,
 

skeletonw00t

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Ok,

I've ordered the 2 acids off the site:
asorbic acid & potassium sorbate...

I currently use this regime:
Macro - 6tsp kno3
1.5 tsp kh2po4
10tsp mgso4 mix 1000ml dose 80ml 3 x week

Trace - 2 tsp 500ml bottle 40 ml 3x a week

What sort of quantities would I need to add to a 1000ml bottle to make an all in one mix?

Thnaks :)
 

ceg4048

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Hi,
Looking at James recipe for a 500ml bottle, you could just double the amounts for a 1000ml bottle so that would give you roughly:
20g (4 tsp) KNO3
4.6g (1 tsp) KH2PO4
16.0g (3 tsp) MgSO4
1g E300 Ascorbic Acid
0.4g E202 Potassium Sorbate
12g (2 tsp) Chelated Trace
1000ml Distilled water

You can dose per his suggested 5ml per 40L and play with the numbers based on how frequently you dose, depending on what size tank you have and of course, depending on how much water you changed.

Cheers,
 
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