Electricity energy costs

[FISHnLAB]

We’d also reintroduce smog.

That was caused by coal not wood for the most part.

 

[FISHnLAB]

We can't even just blame the Tories (without turning this into a political argument lol) as the other parties are just as bad (well, almost - though the Tories have raised the bar this time around!).
In years gone by, super rich folk would build public libraries and the suchlike; now they just squirrel it all away avoiding tax (as they can afford private healthcare so why pay tax to fund the nhs) or waste it on stupid races to get into space, which is little more than an adult version of who can get their piss the highest.
I'm burying my head in the sand again now and hoping it all goes away 🦩. Yes, that's a flamingo; I couldn't find an ostrich!

The Progressive Left is responsible for most of the problems that are making us suffer right now. The way they handled/are handling C19 and Climate Change in most countries alone is the cause of most of our suffering as of late. Then there was the switch to Russian oil so they could virtue signal about how low their countries emissions are. That worked out well didn't it...

 

[FISHnLAB]

Because they're not the only ones profiting. Most of the politicians are also getting some of these profits as shareholders so if it doesn't benefit the politicians it won't happen. They won't kill the goose that lays the golden egg. The super rich get richer, whilst us peasants scrape a living if we're lucky.

Yep, it's a sad state of affairs in deed...

 

[Myrtle]

The Progressive Left is responsible for most of the problems that are making us suffer right now. The way they handled/are handling C19 and Climate Change alone is the cause of most of our suffering as of late. Then there was the switch to Russian oil so they could virtue signal about how low their countries emissions are. That worked out well didn't it...

I don't know a lot about Canadian politics, I'm afraid. All I know is that most politicians are in it for money, power or both.

 

[FISHnLAB]

Depending on the moisture content, burning wood emits more CO2 than coal, wood with very little moisture (dried out) can potentially emit less. And of course deforestation negatively adds to overall CO2 balance as well, not to mention the terrible ecological impact which is often far worse than anything else.

I don't buy into the current CO2 hype personally. And, even if I did carbon capture and other technology could likely make it a non-issue if the climate cowboys would let them work on it instead of trying to force an energy transition when it is not possible at this time and is just causing us all to suffer.

Wood is one of the most renewable of resources available to mankind and even more so since the advent of fast growing Hybrid Black Spruce and the like.

We both live in a part of the world that is sparsely populated and with lots of trees, where wood burning is very prevalent and virtually free - all you need is a good chainsaw and a log splitter - as most folks around here I definitely enjoy a good wood fire - a few good logs of birch for starting the fire and then pile on some good Oak and Beech... will burn forever

Cheers,
Michael

Thank goodness. I'm so glad my family left the UK 3 generations ago. Unfortunately my current family may need to emigrate again(and for many of the same reasons). I may be even closer to you in the near future(I'm right above you in Northwestern Ontario now)...

 

[FISHnLAB]

I don't know a lot about Canadian politics, I'm afraid.

I wasn't just tanking about Canada. That's probably a good thing though, it's pretty bad over here right now. Enough so that we are debating emigrating.

All I know is that most politicians are in it for money, power or both.

I completely agree and it needs to be fixed. I think the answer is to pay politicians no more then the average salary of their fellow countrymen. And, strictly regulate conflicts of interest and harshly punish anyone caught doing anything nefarious for profit or power. Also, strict and very short term limits. That way citizens would go into politics to better their country instead of to get rich and powerful off of the backs of taxpayers.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I don't buy into the current CO2 hype personally. And, even if I did carbon capture and other technology could likely make it a non-issue if the climate cowboys would let them work on it instead of trying to force an energy transition when it is not possible at this time and is just causing us all to suffer

I'm sorry, but if you don't believe in climate change, and the rise in CO2 emissions that have caused it, you are deluded. This isn't a case of opinion, these are cold, hard facts.

<"Climate Change: Global Temperature">.

.......... The year 2022 was the sixth warmest year since global records began in 1880 at 0.86°C (1.55°F) above the 20th century average of 13.9°C (57.0°F). This value is 0.13°C (0.23°F) less than the record set in 2016 and it is only 0.02°C (0.04°F) higher than the last year's (2021) value, which now ranks as the seventh highest. The 10 warmest years in the 143-year record have all occurred since 2010, with the last nine years (2014–2022) ranking as the nine warmest years on record......

<"Global Monitoring Laboratory - Carbon Cycle Greenhouse Gases">

Cheers Darrel

 

[xZaiox]

I'm with Darrel on the CO2 stuff, but I definitely agree with you here

I think the answer is to pay politicians no more then the average salary of their fellow countrymen. And, strictly regulate conflicts of interest and harshly punish anyone caught doing anything nefarious for profit or power. Also, strict and very short term limits. That way citizens would go into politics to better their country instead of to get rich and powerful off of the backs of taxpayers.

I've said similar things in the past. There's too much financial incentive in politics - it attracts the wrong types. Politicians are never poor

 

[MichaelJ]

I don't know a lot about Canadian politics, I'm afraid.

Neither do I.

The Progressive Left is responsible for most of the problems that are making us suffer right now. The way they handled/are handling C19 and Climate Change in most countries alone is the cause of most of our suffering as of late. Then there was the switch to Russian oil so they could virtue signal about how low their countries emissions are. That worked out well didn't it...

I always thought it was funny when people say that the politicians never gets anything done in this country, but somehow always blame their favorite scapegoat (be it on the left or right) for all recent problems... I am not inclined to buy into that sort of thinking. The true sadness of the matter is that most politicians (on the left and right) are directly or indirectly serving corporate- and special interests first and their constituent as a distant 3rd and they are just not very good. The only partitioners to blame for this mess are the voters - which, unfortunately are a lot less inclined to common sense thinking than they used to be... cause-and-effect and science deniers in general comes to mind (you find those in spades on both sides). In this country we are deeply polarized - its a very, very sad thing and its getting worse - I am old enough to remember times where politicians regardless of not agreeing on fundamental issues could reach common sense solutions for the greater good of the country.

I don't buy into the current CO2 hype personally.

Well, Mother Nature don't really care what we think personally.... CO2 emission, climate change or the law of gravity is not something that is subject to personal opinion as to whether it is real or not. The only thing in my opinion that can be argued about at this stage is what we realistically can do about it as a civilization - I am not super optimistic about the situation. But Hey! We can all blame it on the Brits for sparking the industrial revolution in the 18th hundreds....

Cheers,
Michael

 

[FISHnLAB]

Hi all,

I'm sorry, but if you don't believe in climate change, and the rise in CO2 emissions that have caused it, you are deluded. This isn't a case of opinion, these are cold, hard facts.

<"Climate Change: Global Temperature">.

<"Global Monitoring Laboratory - Carbon Cycle Greenhouse Gases">

Cheers Darrel

I did not say I didn't believe in climate change and there are no "cold hard facts" in science(you should no better then this with your background Darrel). Our understanding of this universe in constantly evolving. I said I don't believe in the hype or buy into the fear mongering if you will. I also don't agree with the popular solutions nor think they are the only way to go(in fact, I think many would do more harm that good). Maybe if more debate and studies were "allowed" we could get closer to the bottom of this but, with current cancel culture and extremism by the climate extremists and progressive left, who knows if we will ever get to the bottom of things. It's pretty ridiculous these days the way one side stifles, cancels, name calls, etc. any talk, debate, or research into certain topics and it is a mockery of the scientific method imo.

I heard about this book the other day and plan to order it as I hear it is a good recent release on this topic...

False Alarm: How Climate Change Panic Costs Us Trillions, Hurts the Poor, and Fails to Fix the Planet https://a.co/d/c6qxcqB

 

[John q]

Rule of etiquette... lol...

"Never discuss religion or politics with those who hold opinions opposite to yours”

 

[MichaelJ]

and there are no "cold hard facts" in science.... Our understanding of this universe in constantly evolving

I am sorry, this is just one of those utterly maddening things that is so stifling in our times and so often repeated and used as an excuse to dispense with common sense because we find something inconvenient - for whatever reason... or just wants to absurdly stand out from the crowd and assert ourselves in the most dumbfounding way... Another maddening thing I hear all the time from people (including family/friends) on deeply complicated issues they have absolutely no qualifications to judge or evaluate is "I did my own research and formed my own opinion" .... yeah, right which usually amounts to reading an article on the web or booklet that just happened to appear at a time that was commercially lucrative for the author(s) on a controversial topic... or worse, watching YouTube videos from [insert entity that affirms your beliefs here]...

The saying Cold hard facts... Is a way of saying that something is true to an immensely high degree of certainty based on the rigid methods we are using to learn about how nature behaves and what it means when nature behaves in a certain way.

So when Darrel says its Cold hard facts... in this context, I agree with him 100% - and thats the cold stone truth

"Never discuss religion or politics with those who hold opinions opposite to yours”

Couldn't agree more... I want to be a picky discerning Discus, but I am pretty weak minded and I always take the easy bait if its flashing before my eyes.... I am sort of like a Tetra I guess

Cheers,
Michael

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

and there are no "cold hard facts" in science

The saying Cold hard facts... Is a way of saying that something is true to an immensely high degree of certainty based on the rigid methods we are using to learn about how nature behaves and what it means when nature behaves in a certain way.

So when Darrel says its Cold hard facts... in this context, I agree with him 100% - and thats the cold stone truth

There are, and this is one.

Maybe if more debate and studies were "allowed" we could get closer to the bottom of this but, with current cancel culture and extremism by the climate extremists and progressive left, who knows if we will ever get to the bottom of things. It's pretty ridiculous these days the way one side stifles, cancels, name calls, etc. any talk, debate, or research into certain topics and it is a mockery of the scientific method imo.

I don't think we are attempting to stifle debate, in fact this is an opportunity for you to interpret the graphs above.

False Alarm: How Climate Change Panic Costs Us Trillions, Hurts the Poor, and Fails to Fix the Planet

and Bjorn Lomborg is a Climate Scientist? and <"a credible source">?

I said I don't believe in the hype or buy into the fear mongering if you will.

Well you should, it isn't hype, it isn't fear mongering millions of refugees will be forced to leave their countries as the climate warms and sea level rises.

with current cancel culture and extremism by the climate extremists and progressive left

Never discuss religion or politics with those who hold opinions opposite to yours

Enough said. It isn't about politics or personal opinion, we are all going to differ in our opinions but there are no alternative facts.

cheers Darrel

 

[hypnogogia]

there are no "cold hard facts" in science

Actually, there are. Quite a few in fact.

 

[MichaelJ]

as the climate warms and sea level rises.

Not only that... here is a plot of the yearly total mass change (Gt - billion metric tons) of the Greenland ice sheet from April 2002 to August 2021 determined from GRACE (2002-17) and GRACE-FO (2018-Present) satellite data.

Source: US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. (NOAA).

"when warming temperatures gradually melt sea ice over time, fewer bright surfaces are available to reflect sunlight back into the atmosphere. More solar energy is absorbed at the surface and ocean temperatures rise. This begins a cycle of warming and melting. Warmer water temperatures delay ice growth in the fall and winter, and the ice melts faster the following spring, exposing dark ocean waters for a longer period the following summer." - NOAA.

Moreover, all that freshwater melting into the oceans will cause the water to become less dense and disrupt the current patterns of ocean currents in some regions. Some estimates suggests that at the current rate of change some ocean currents could stop within the next few decades.

A Major Ocean Current Is at Its Weakest Point in 1,000 Years

Natural variations are currently the main cause, but climate change should continue to cause it to slow down

www.scientificamerican.com

Cheers,
Michael

 

[FISHnLAB]

I'm not going to argue with you guys anymore as I have better things to do and I come on here for planted tank discussion.

Science is constantly evolving and nothing is a cold hard fact guys. We once thought it was a fact the world was flat. I bet scientists said the Bohr Model was a cold hard fact too until modern wave theory was brought to light. Furthermore, any counterscience into anything else climate change related is actively slandered, defunded, discredited, and shut down by the left with the assistance of their paid off mainstream media while thousands and thousands of studies are being funded into the the theories they already think and want to be right(all while advising their friends to invest in the tech the transition will push). It's a joke and a mockery of the scientific method. Same thing happened with Covid, it was not even allowed to do counter studies for the most part and scientists and doctors were even reprimanded for wanting or trying to investigate other theories. That is not science and neither is this imo.

You guys do realize that we have been through several ice ages already and there was a rise in CO2 before each one right? You do realize that the sun will explode one day just like every other star and destroy our solar system? You do realize that humans are no more significant then a flea on a dogs ass in the grand scheme of the universe right? Do you see our errogance? Do you see that you are paying more for fuel and groceries right now largely because of the very Climate policies you praise(not to mention the ridiculously excessive Covid ones that were also praised)? Do you not see you are paying more for LNG and energy in general because many of your elected governments decided to sell out to Russia so they could virtue signal to other countries about their low emissions? Do you like to suffer and watch others suffer? Do you think we current generations should suffer for all those not even born yet? How much? For how many generations that are not born yet? How long until something not climate change related makes us extinct? Do you think there is enough Lithium and Cobalt to supply us all? Do you think there are enough rare earth minerals without China's supply? Do you think mining these minerals is environmentally friendly or any better then oil and gas? Do you think we can generate enough energy sans oil and gas without causing similar or other destructive consequences? Do you not think human population is a problem and that we are exempt from the population control we impose on many species of animals? Do you not think some countries will still continue to use oil & gas and people will emigrate to them for the better quality of life?

I'll leave it there and go back to tanks guys. I only even posted in this thread because it gets annoying listening to the people complain about their electricity costs and try and blame them on the electricity companies greed(not that that isn't a huge factor too lol) when the very policies they supported & support is causing them. I mean I picture a group of Climate Activists blocking a bridge in the name of climate change and then when they get home wondering why their gas is so expensive and why events were cancelled due to traffic delays, it's pretty funny but, not really at the same time... Have a good day guys👍.

 

[hypnogogia]

You do realize that the sun will explode one day just like every other star and destroy our solar system?

Is that a cold hard scientific fact?

 

[xZaiox]

I have better things to do and I come on here for planted tank discussion.

This is in the 'off-topic' section and you chose to engage in the discussion.

Furthermore, any counterscience into anything else climate change related is actively slandered, defunded, discredited, and shut down by the left with the assistance of their paid off mainstream media while thousands and thousands of studies are being funded into the the theories they already think and want to be right(all while advising their friends to invest in the tech the transition will push). It's a joke and a mockery of the scientific method. Same thing happened with Covid, it was not even allowed to do counter studies for the most part and scientists and doctors were even reprimanded for wanting or trying to investigate other theories. That is not science and neither is this imo.

Do you have some sort of background in the science/medical community? These are complex multifactorial topics that typically require the deep understanding brought about through many years in the respective fields. It astounds me the amount of people on Facebook who feel they understand everything about COVID despite them not even knowing high-school level science material. Confirmation bias is a powerful thing.

You do realize that humans are no more significant then a flea on a dogs ass in the grand scheme of the universe right?

This gets more into existentialism, but I agree.

Do you see that you are paying more for fuel and groceries right now largely because of the very Climate policies you praise(not to mention the ridiculously excessive Covid ones that were also praised)?

Throughout these rising costs, energy producers have been reporting record breaking profits in the billions. I see this as predominantly corporate greed; they will do anything other than eat the costs themselves, and I think human necessities (including gas) should be much more tightly regulated by governmental bodies to prevent profiteering. Frankly I think corporate greed is rampant and becoming ever-more destructive.

Do you think we current generations should suffer for all those not even born yet?

This comes across as very "me-me-me", and is an attitude previous generations have had. Passing down the environmental burden is not the way forward. In-fact, this is the very reason I refuse to have biological kids - I don't want to bring other people into the world that I view as having a bleak future. It's especially interesting to me that population rates are declining - clearly I'm not the only one with this mindset.

 

[MichaelJ]

I'm not going to argue with you guys anymore as I have better things to do and I come on here for planted tank discussion.

Sure thing.... but I must kindly remind you that you sort of started it - and ecology (which is greatly impacted by climate) is an integral part of what we deal with on this forum. Moreover, this is in the off-topic / Chit-chat section... so there is that.

as I have better things to do

And yet you keep piling on with commentary and "questions" that, if left unanswered, could lead some readers to believe that some of us think you're somehow correct.

Science is constantly evolving and nothing is a cold hard fact guys.

Yes, science is evolving... yet, many things in science can be described as cold hard facts: "Objective data that is irrefutably true and removed from any emotional bias."

We once thought it was a fact the world was flat.

A complete straw man argument that suggest that our understanding of climate science equate the times when people thought the earth was flat.

I bet scientists said the Bohr Model was a cold hard fact too until modern wave theory was brought to light.

Wrong. The Bohr Model could only account for the Hydrogen atom and everyone knew, including Bohr, that there was way more to it, but it was nevertheless a great leap - albeit very transitional - in the progress that eventually lead to the modern quantum field theory.

Furthermore, any counterscience into anything else climate change related is actively slandered, defunded, discredited, and shut down by the left with the assistance of their paid off mainstream media while thousands and thousands of studies are being funded into the the theories they already think and want to be right(all while advising their friends to invest in the tech the transition will push).

That sounds like my relatives and friends (on both sides of the political spectrum) that only watches and digest news and information that affirm their beliefs. I personally haven't seen any credible evidence in support of any of this... Perhaps thats how it works in Canada, but we (still) have great academic freedom and diversity in the United States, contrary to what some - less than reputable media outlets - on both sides, wants you to believe.

Do you see that you are paying more for fuel and groceries right now largely because of the very Climate policies you praise

I must have overlooked that, but I didn't notice anyone praising any climate policies?

You guys do realize that we have been through several ice ages already and there was a rise in CO2 before each one right?

Sure thing, but this is not one of them. For starters, study the science obtained from the ice core data and the conclusions that we are dealing with something exceptionally unusual here thats been evolving since the beginning of the industrial revolution in the 18th hundred - and its global warming by the way...

You do realize that the sun will explode one day just like every other star and destroy our solar system?

No, it won't. The sun is a G class main sequence star that will expand tremendously (becoming a red giant consuming the innermost plants - including earth) as it runs out of hydrogen and eventually shrink back and spend the rest of its life as a white dwarf. No explosion, sorry - the sun just isn't massive enough to become a supernova.

You do realize that humans are no more significant then a flea on a dogs ass in the grand scheme of the universe right?

Thats a matter of perspective and beliefs - and completely irrelevant.

Do you see our errogance?

Yes, arrogance and ignorance.

Do you like to suffer and watch others suffer?

Not in particular.

How long until something not climate change related makes us extinct?

No one knows, but nuclear war, a truly devastating pandemic or a so-called Planet Killer astroid could happen before.

Do you think there are enough rare earth minerals without China's supply?

Yes there are, but it's tremendously easier and cheaper to mine in China at this point.

Do you think we can generate enough energy sans oil and gas without causing similar or other destructive consequences?

Yes eventually. Fusion energy, an exponential increase in the efficiency of photovoltaic (possibly similar to what we have seen with packing of transistors -- see Moore's Law) and an exponential increase in the efficiency of battery technology comes to mind.

Do you not think human population is a problem and that we are exempt from the population control we impose on many species of animals?

As peoples standard of living in terms of health, education and opportunities increases population growth will become less of a problem. Its already happening.

Do you not think some countries will still continue to use oil & gas and people will emigrate to them for the better quality of life?

No.

Have a good day guys👍.

Same to you.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[MichaelJ]

Is that a cold hard scientific fact?

No its dead wrong.