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Feasibility query

Mark.A

Member
Joined
22 Jul 2009
Messages
58
Location
Northumberland, UK.
Hey all, I have a good amount of experience and knowledge of planted tanks but I have a query about my plans for my next planted tank which I am not sure of the answer to, so I figured I'd pick your brains and see if I can get a definitive answer.

First off I'll explain what I'm wanting to do. I am looking to set up a large tank (at least 4x2x2), low tech, with no CO2, and medium light. I also want to minimize the amount of work needed for maintenance due to my increasing age and back/knee health problems. Budget is not a big issue. I'm not loaded but I'm happy to spend a considerable amount getting the tank how I want it. The tank will be very heavily planted and aquascaped with either Flourite or Tropica Aquarium Soil, Azalea / Redmoor wood and some rockwork.

I'm thinking of utilising a sump system. I have also kept several reef aquariums before and I can see how a sump system could be beneficial for planted tanks, though I have never used one on a planted tank before. I think having the sump system will help with my efforts to minimize the amount of work needed for maintenance as well as a few other benefits.

I plan to use a doser to dose TNC complete. I am also planning to setup a large water container to be used for 50% weekly water changes, which will be made by pumping the water. With the system I am planning all I should need to do for the water change is open a valve to drain the tank, close the valve once it's half empty and turn on the pump in the replacement water container to refill the tank.

As part of my mission to keep maintenance down I would like to keep all slow growing plants, which luckily are my favourite plants anyway! I would want a lot of Crypts, Anubias and Bucephalandra with the odd Echinodorus, Aponogeton, Crinum and Java Fern/Moss.

I guess the first thing I'm not sure of is - would I be able to just have all these slow growing plants, in the system I am planning, without algae problems?.. or would I have to have some fast growing plants as well? :confused:
 
I’m a big fan of low tech tanks, and find they have a wonderful degree of stability once up and running. However, like most tanks, big and regular water changes seem to be useful over the first month or two in stopping algae growth. Its a pain to get rid of once it’s there in force, and I’m pretty relaxed about a small showing, but prevention better than cure I think.
 
I’m a big fan of low tech tanks, and find they have a wonderful degree of stability once up and running. However, like most tanks, big and regular water changes seem to be useful over the first month or two in stopping algae growth. Its a pain to get rid of once it’s there in force, and I’m pretty relaxed about a small showing, but prevention better than cure I think.
Agreed. I'm fine with a small showing of some algae, so long as nothing gets a hold. I'm just not sure if large, regular water changes along with plenty of nutrients will be enough to keep the algae at bay.
 
just a thought: If quick growing stem plants should aid in the beginning, couldn't you just add some to your sump. Maybe remove them eventually when the tank has been running for a while?
 
just a thought: If quick growing stem plants should aid in the beginning, couldn't you just add some to your sump. Maybe remove them eventually when the tank has been running for a while?
That is certainly a possibility I had thought of, they could be kept permanently down there if they were needed. It's the part about whether they will be needed or not that I'm not sure about.

I think it may be fine without fast growing plants, I'm just not sure. I know it seems a daft thing to be getting hung up on now, when I don't even have the tank yet, I can just add some stems to the sump if algae starts getting a hold. The reason I'm trying to figure this out now is because if they are needed then that brings up a follow up query - will the stems grow well enough to outcompete the algae without CO2? This is the real issue I'm trying to settle on, whether or not CO2 injection would be needed. I am familiar with using CO2 and have used it on a lot of tanks previously, but they have all had higher light and fast growing plants. The main thing I want to do with this tank is to have as little maintenance as possible, hence going without the CO2 with the intention of not having fast growing plants, if possible, or as you say just having some in the sump. I'm just not certain the fast growing stems would grow enough without the CO2. Can anyone advise whether they would?
 
Thinking about it... I'm sure I can remember, in the dim and distant past of my early days of planted tank keeping, having tanks without CO2 and stems that still grew okay, if not particularly fast. Pretty sure I didn't have any bad algae issues either. I just did weekly 50% water changes. We didn't have nutrient dosing back then either.

I guess I'm just not confident with that way of doing things after doing high tech for so long. I guess the only way to be sure is to do it. Worst case scenario I suppose would be I end up having to add CO2 afterwards if the stems struggle to outcompete the algae.

There is another reason I was happy to not use CO2 and that's because I hate seeing the bubbles in the tank. I suppose I could try and build a CO2 reactor that would saturate the water as much as possible and then de-bubble the water before it's returned to the display tank. I guess that would work. I guess that's what I'll do, just try it without CO2 and add CO2 if I have to later.
 
I've never added any fastgrowing / easy stemplants to my tanks. I'm sure several types will grow fine and fast without adding CO2.
If I was to do your setup, I wouldn't think of adding other plants, but I'd be very conservative about light intensity and duration.
 
There is another reason I was happy to not use CO2 and that's because I hate seeing the bubbles in the tank. I suppose I could try and build a CO2 reactor that would saturate the water as much as possible and then de-bubble the water before it's returned to the display tank

Have a read through this I know its completely diffrent to what you want but I thought you might see how he injects the co2 without the bubbles

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/taking-a-sump-back-in-five-minutes.59010/
 
Yes it's infinitely possible. Take a look at The Soil Substrate or Dirted Planted Tank - A How to Guide for starters.

A sump is ideal, it's not necessarily the lack of CO2 that's the problem it's fluctuation that maybe the problem. Sumps and tanks with large surface area help keep CO2 levels constant at somewhere near atmospheric levels throughout the photoperiod, and also help to keep O2 levels up which is crucial to healthy plant growth and a healthy system
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/maxing-co2-in-low-techs.29856/

Also, like any form of gardening just choose the plants to suit conditions. There are plenty of stems that will thrive without CO2, take a look at Tropica's "Easy" plant list. They're easy because they're undemanding of CO2 and light, and not necessarily fast growing, that depends on available light, CO2 and nutrients.

And that brings me neatly to algae, it's generally caused by too high a light intensity and poor maintenance, especially in a low-energy tank without CO2 fertilisation. Get the balance right and algae will not be a problem. The rest of the Tutorials section is also worth a browse, all the info you need to get started is there.

But either way to get off to the best start possible my advice is always to plant as heavily as possible from the outset. It infers an enormous amount of biological stability that helps to keep algae at bay.
 
Thanks for the advice everyone! :)

I'll have a look at the links/guides but I think I'm less doubtful now that it would be a problem, which is much appreciated. I'm sure I'll have something else to pick your brains about soon though! ;)
 
I've never added any fastgrowing / easy stemplants to my tanks. I'm sure several types will grow fine and fast without adding CO2.
If I was to do your setup, I wouldn't think of adding other plants, but I'd be very conservative about light intensity and duration.
I will be trying it without the fast growing stems. I have some ideas on the light, see below reply to Tim.

Yes it's infinitely possible. Take a look at The Soil Substrate or Dirted Planted Tank - A How to Guide for starters.

A sump is ideal, it's not necessarily the lack of CO2 that's the problem it's fluctuation that maybe the problem. Sumps and tanks with large surface area help keep CO2 levels constant at somewhere near atmospheric levels throughout the photoperiod, and also help to keep O2 levels up which is crucial to healthy plant growth and a healthy system
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/maxing-co2-in-low-techs.29856/

Also, like any form of gardening just choose the plants to suit conditions. There are plenty of stems that will thrive without CO2, take a look at Tropica's "Easy" plant list. They're easy because they're undemanding of CO2 and light, and not necessarily fast growing, that depends on available light, CO2 and nutrients.

And that brings me neatly to algae, it's generally caused by too high a light intensity and poor maintenance, especially in a low-energy tank without CO2 fertilisation. Get the balance right and algae will not be a problem. The rest of the Tutorials section is also worth a browse, all the info you need to get started is there.

But either way to get off to the best start possible my advice is always to plant as heavily as possible from the outset. It infers an enormous amount of biological stability that helps to keep algae at bay.
Good to know that some fast growing stems would be possible if I do end up having to add some. I do plan on not adding them though and will be trying my hardest not to add them!

I understand about the algae, water changes should not be an issue for me to do, even large daily ones if need be. As I mentioned before all I will need to do is open a drain valve to drain the tank and turn a pump on to refill it. As far as nutrients go I will be dosing TNC complete via an automatic doser on a daily basis. Going off past experience I suspect it won't need more than 2 ml per day, even in such a large very heavily stocked tank, due to the low energy growth.

I will be using LED lights that can be programmed/dimmed and I'm thinking of having an hour ramp up/down lighting period either side of a 6 hour full lighting period. So that'll be a total of 8 hours with lights on. The "full lighting" period light intensity will be trial and error I think. The lights I will be using I have used before in a high light tank, with success, so they are plenty strong enough, what I am planning to do this time though is mount the lights much higher above the aquarium (maybe 2ft-3ft above? high enough so I won't ever need to move them for tank access!) and I can also set the level of light intensity anyway, so I can run them at like 40%-50% or whatever. I was thinking to start the full light intensity lower (maybe 40%?) and let the tank get going at that level, do 50% water changes 2 or 3 times a week and wait for any initial issues to show themselves / clear, then once it's settled start raising the light intensity, say 5% at a time, and leave it for another month at that level. If there's no issues, raise another 5%. If I start to see some issues then up the water changes and back off 5%. Anyone have thoughts on the lighting/photoperiod? I will probably also use a Seneye Reef (with PAR meter) to make tuning the lights easier and just to see what light the plants are getting. Actually if I use the Seneye Reef I can check exactly how much PAR the lights are putting out at the substrate and set the light intensity so I get low level PAR there, which should equate to medium light near the surface, although again I'd be able to check that with the PAR meter.

I will be planting very heavily from the start, this is one of the reasons I am planning it all carefully. I will be adding a lot of Anubias and Bucephalandra from the off, which is going to be quite costly. I will see if I can put something together to show my setup and scaping idea, so you can see what I mean.
 
It sounds like you've given yourself a headstart with all the planning. I can't see any reasons you should encounter any major issues.
Be careful with the lights as Anubias and Bucephalandra are very slow growing plants.
 
I plan to use a doser to dose TNC complete.
You will need a "wallet extension" if you dose using this.

Your tank is 4x2x2 ft -> 16cu ft -> 450l. + sump -> 500l.

TNC is 1ml per 10l, thats 50ml per dose @ 3 times a week, so at £10 for 500ml will last 500/50/3 -> 3 weeks !!! :rolleyes:

You need to consider EI dosing, so you will not need a wallet extension. Considerably cheaper.

£20 of salts will give you approximately 8 litres and at same dose will last 8000/50/3 -> 53 weeks. A whole year. Result.

I am also planning to setup a large water container to be used for 50% weekly water changes, which will be made by pumping the water.With the system I am planning all I should need to do for the water change is open a valve to drain the tank, close the valve once it's half empty and turn on the pump in the replacement water container to refill the tank.
Remember water change is more than just a water change. :rolleyes:. It is bashing/removing the detritus off the plants and vacuuming up the cr*p that gets deposited on your substrate as well. Below is a picture of the bucket I siphon into each week with a typical amount of cr*p settled out.

upload_2020-3-19_15-22-47.png
 
It sounds like you've given yourself a headstart with all the planning. I can't see any reasons you should encounter any major issues.
Be careful with the lights as Anubias and Bucephalandra are very slow growing plants.
I'm going to try my best! :)

You will need a "wallet extension" if you dose using this.

Your tank is 4x2x2 ft -> 16cu ft -> 450l. + sump -> 500l.

TNC is 1ml per 10l, thats 50ml per dose @ 3 times a week, so at £10 for 500ml will last 500/50/3 -> 3 weeks !!! :rolleyes:

You need to consider EI dosing, so you will not need a wallet extension. Considerably cheaper.

£20 of salts will give you approximately 8 litres and at same dose will last 8000/50/3 -> 53 weeks. A whole year. Result.


Remember water change is more than just a water change. :rolleyes:. It is bashing/removing the detritus off the plants and vacuuming up the cr*p that gets deposited on your substrate as well. Below is a picture of the bucket I siphon into each week with a typical amount of cr*p settled out.
The recommended dose of TNC Complete for low light tanks is 1ml per day per 50 litres. I can get 5 litres of TNC Complete for £49.99. 5 litres will last 5000/10 -> 500 days. Even if I double the dose to 2ml per day, to make sure enough nutrients are being dosed, it'll still last 250 days, which is fine by me. This is what I meant when I mentioned about probably dosing 2ml per day previously. I have made my own EI mix before, with my previous high tech tanks, but I'd rather not have to make it myself and for this tank, with it being low light/low energy, dosing the TNC Complete suits me better.

With regards to removing the detritus from the plants and substrate, I hadn't forgotten. The system will have around 10 times turnover of the tank volume going through the sump, so there is going to be good flow through the tank and going over the overflow weir. I can waft the plants and substrate to bring the detritus into the water flow where it can be carried over the overflow weir and then get captured in the filtration in the sump. Anything that doesn't get removed that way I can syphon out the same way you do but I don't need a bucket, I can just syphon it straight into the sump under the tank.

But either way to get off to the best start possible my advice is always to plant as heavily as possible from the outset. It infers an enormous amount of biological stability that helps to keep algae at bay.
Hey Tim, I told you I was going to try and put something together to show how I plan to set up the tank lighting and how heavily I plan to plant. Well, I did it! :D Just don't laugh too much! ;)

This first pic is a quick drawing of where the tank will be situated and shows how I want to set up the LED lights. Hopefully you can see what I mean. There will be a wooden shelf added across the alcove a good way above the tank (exact distance will be determined at setup to ensure I can get the right light levels) and the LED lights will be mounted under that shelf. The tank will be open top. I'm also going to add a removable pelmet to the front of the wooden shelf, which will block the light from the LED so the light itself won't be seen from the room.

Basic-Lighting-Design-1.jpg


This next pic is a very basic outline of the intended hardscape. From right side to middle-ish - Azalea / Redmoor wood with a few smaller rocks. Left side mostly rock work with some small bits of driftwood at the base. Once it's planted though about 80% of the hardscape will be covered by plants.

Basic-Scape-1.jpg


This next pic is a mock up I put together from bits of other tanks, to give a very basic idea of the kind of planting/scape I want and it shows how heavily I intend to plant. With the Anubias and Bucephalandra being so slow growing I want to plant them very heavily like this from the beginning.

Planted-Scape-1.jpg


As you can see that's a lot of Anubias and Bucephalandra! :lol:

I think I'm going to be doing things like this below to a lot of wood/rock. :eek:

0a9e5f320a2849cf938d835eeb003c10.jpg


Any further thoughts are most welcome! :)
 
Hi all,
You will need a "wallet extension" if you dose using this........You need to consider EI dosing, so you will not need a wallet extension. Considerably cheaper.

£20 of salts will give you approximately 8 litres and at same dose will last 8000/50/3 -> 53 weeks. A whole year. Result.
That one. Plants can only take up nutrients as ions, and every NO3- ion is the same as every one.

If any-one tells you different you can tell them that those nitrogen and oxygen ions have been on this planet for the last 4,500,000,000 years, and they don't have long enough memories to remember all the compounds they've been in.

cheers Darrel
 
Hi all,That one. Plants can only take up nutrients as ions, and every NO3- ion is the same as every one.

If any-one tells you different you can tell them that those nitrogen and oxygen ions have been on this planet for the last 4,500,000,000 years, and they don't have long enough memories to remember all the compounds they've been in.

cheers Darrel
Okay. I am aware. Never had anyone tell me different but good to know. :thumbup:
 
Hi all,
Okay. I am aware.
You are good, I'm <"too tight to buy branded fertilisers">, but I can understand that they offer ease of use etc.
Never had anyone tell me different but good to know
@Mark.A, you <"would be amazed"> by the number of people who've told me that I am "totally wrong" about fertilisers and that a particular branded fertiliser is "different", better than all the other ones and can't be replicated with chemicals that you can buy off the shelf.

cheers Darrel
 
Hi all,You are good, I'm <"too tight to buy branded fertilisers">, but I can understand that they offer ease of use etc. @Mark.A, you <"would be amazed"> by the number of people who've told me that I am "totally wrong" about fertilisers and that a particular branded fertiliser is "different", better than all the other ones and can't be replicated with chemicals that you can buy off the shelf.

cheers Darrel
Yeah, I can see how that could be annoying. Fertiliser is fertiliser as far as I know, they're all pretty much the same thing whether it's a commercial product or DIY. The only difference to me is convenience, which you are paying quite heavily for with the commercial products compared to DIY. The cost of that convenience is worth it to me right now, with this tank being low light/low energy/low tech a 20ml dose per day (2ml per day per 50l) should be fine and that means the 5l of fertiliser (£49.99) will last 250 days. If I was going to be doing high tech/high light then there's no way I'd be using a commercial fertiliser though. With the amount I'll use on this tank though I'm okay paying that much out for the convenience, for now at least. If my financial situation ever changes I can switch to making my own EI mix, not a big deal. I may end up just switching anyway, once the tank is sorted and established. I can take my time sourcing the ingredients/equipment and just use the commercial fertiliser until I'm ready to switch. I'll see how I feel when it comes to it! :lol:
 
I'm going to try my best! :)


The recommended dose of TNC Complete for low light tanks is 1ml per day per 50 litres. I can get 5 litres of TNC Complete for £49.99. 5 litres will last 5000/10 -> 500 days. Even if I double the dose to 2ml per day, to make sure enough nutrients are being dosed, it'll still last 250 days, which is fine by me. This is what I meant when I mentioned about probably dosing 2ml per day previously. I have made my own EI mix before, with my previous high tech tanks, but I'd rather not have to make it myself and for this tank, with it being low light/low energy, dosing the TNC Complete suits me better.

With regards to removing the detritus from the plants and substrate, I hadn't forgotten. The system will have around 10 times turnover of the tank volume going through the sump, so there is going to be good flow through the tank and going over the overflow weir. I can waft the plants and substrate to bring the detritus into the water flow where it can be carried over the overflow weir and then get captured in the filtration in the sump. Anything that doesn't get removed that way I can syphon out the same way you do but I don't need a bucket, I can just syphon it straight into the sump under the tank.


Hey Tim, I told you I was going to try and put something together to show how I plan to set up the tank lighting and how heavily I plan to plant. Well, I did it! :D Just don't laugh too much! ;)

This first pic is a quick drawing of where the tank will be situated and shows how I want to set up the LED lights. Hopefully you can see what I mean. There will be a wooden shelf added across the alcove a good way above the tank (exact distance will be determined at setup to ensure I can get the right light levels) and the LED lights will be mounted under that shelf. The tank will be open top. I'm also going to add a removable pelmet to the front of the wooden shelf, which will block the light from the LED so the light itself won't be seen from the room.

View attachment 132627

This next pic is a very basic outline of the intended hardscape. From right side to middle-ish - Azalea / Redmoor wood with a few smaller rocks. Left side mostly rock work with some small bits of driftwood at the base. Once it's planted though about 80% of the hardscape will be covered by plants.

View attachment 132628

This next pic is a mock up I put together from bits of other tanks, to give a very basic idea of the kind of planting/scape I want and it shows how heavily I intend to plant. With the Anubias and Bucephalandra being so slow growing I want to plant them very heavily like this from the beginning.

View attachment 132629

As you can see that's a lot of Anubias and Bucephalandra! :lol:

I think I'm going to be doing things like this below to a lot of wood/rock. :eek:

View attachment 132630

Any further thoughts are most welcome! :)
Looks like you've given the scape a lot of thought. And it looks great to me and part of the fun is in the gardening aspect of it all, so just go ahead and have fun.
Just one comment, I'd put the Anubias in shaded areas, even low-energy with low light they are still susceptible to GSA.
Oh, and also start a journal, it'd be great to follow your planted tank journey especially as it's going to be a longterm scape.
It's also a great way to get very specific help and advice when, and if, you need it.
 
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