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First low tech - advice needed

Sacha

Sacha

Member
Joined
3 Jan 2014
Messages
992
Location
London
Hi all,

I've just ordered a brand new Juwel Rio 240 and intend to set it up as a low-tech.

Some of you will remember I owned a high-tech Rio 125 for several years. A couple of years ago I got rid of the Co2 because it wasn't helping my situation at all, and switched to liquid carbon instead. I continued doing 50% weekly water changes etc.

It is my intention that the new tank will eventually replace the 125 and be an ultra-low maintenance, beautiful low-tech planted tank. I have been reading around and I am pretty sure I know what I am doing in terms of planting heavily from the outset, low light (by my calculations the Rio 240 comes equipped with 1.1 wpg LEDs so ideal for low tech).

Where I could use some help in particular is in choosing a substrate and scaping the tank.

  • I want a substrate that is going to be good for the lifetime of the tank (many years) and never need replacing.
  • I want something clean that doesn't give me dirt particles floating around the tank.
  • I'd prefer one single layer of substrate rather than several.

I'm planning on filling the tank with the usual low-tech suspects (crypts, swords, java fern, anubias, fast-growing stem plants like ludwigia & hygrophilia). But maybe also some Staurogyne Repens if I can make it grow.

Any advice?

Finally I'm still unsure about water changes. Having read this excellent tutorial: http://www.sudeepmandal.com/hobbies/planted-aquarium/low-tech-planted-tank-guide/
I am under the impression that I won't need to change the water at all?! Or maybe every few weeks at the most?

How can this possibly be correct, I have been breaking my ****s for years doing weekly 50% water changes with pure RO - was this really all a waste of time when I could have just gone low-tech from the very beginning and drastically reduced my maintenance schedule?

Can someone confirm that I actually won't need to do water changes if I plant very heavily from the outset and fertilise only sparingly (once a week)?

Any advice greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Sacha
 
Sacha said:
Finally I'm still unsure about water changes.
Click to expand...

People have been arguing over water changes forever :D Zero water changes is tough because to achieve that long term you'd need to exactly balance what goes in (food/ferts) with what comes out (plant material) .... odds of you getting that balance exactly right are pretty slim. It can work and will work for some length of time but not indefinitely. At some point you'll run out of something or something will built up in excess and it will all go wrong.

50% changes are definitely needed if you are dosing EI ferts and CO2 as that speeds everything up

Low tech, I would go for some water changes but if you find 50% a week a lot of work you can certainly cut back e.g. 20-25% a week or every other week do a 50%, or you might do 10% a week and then every third week 50% - it's flexible. Partly water changes depends on you tank e.g. if you are very low stocked and not adding a lot of ferts then less/lower water changes will keep you at the same point as someone higher stocked with slightly more frequent changes. Topping up with RO helps but you don't have to use RO for the water changes if tap is easier.
 
I think people have experimented with the no water changes at all with mixed results. There's quite an extensive thread in here somewhere regarding water changes. Running low tech is mainly about finding balance with your lighting so the plants never really hit that point where co2 becomes an issue and using plants that are better suited to these situations. I think most people running low tech still dose around 10 percent of the EI values and do some water changing now and again. @dw1305 doesn't use co2 at all and low tech stuff is his thing but I think he still changes a bit of water weekly. As for substrate if it were me and going long term I think I would still use a planting substrate like Tropica but some people use aquatic compost under gravel with good results but as you want just one type I'd go Tropica.
 
Also, look into the Duck Weed Index which I find quite effective. Use floating plants that aren't co2 limited as they get co2 from the atmosphere as a canary. I generally dose a little bit of every fert weekly and keep an eye on the floaters, if they start showing signs of deficiency add a little bit more for a couple of weeks, observe and repeat until you find a place where it stops happening. I also use a TDS pen so I see roughly what the TDS the plants seem to be doing alright and try and keep it around that point. If the TDS starts falling away up the dose a little.
 
Thanks for the replies...

There are countless guides online and threads in the 'low tech' forum explaining how with the low-tech method you 'don't need to do water changes'. For years I have been doing 50% weekly as I have been using EI ferts & liquid carbon. But this guide (http://www.sudeepmandal.com/hobbies/planted-aquarium/low-tech-planted-tank-guide/) based on Tom Barr's website, suggests weekly fertilising and water changes only a few times a year...

Which Tropica substrate are you referring to because there are several?

Thanks.
 
Sacha said:
Where I could use some help in particular is in choosing a substrate and scaping the tank.
Click to expand...
Just use Tropica AS, you'll still need to dose to keep it viable long term, though.

Sacha said:
suggests weekly fertilising and water changes only a few times a year...
Click to expand...
I reckon that's fine if you have a largish, biologically stable, heavily planted tank, with a relatively low bioload, and you've gained a pretty good idea about the minimum fertz dosing regime required to keep things healthy without raising TDS too much.
Little and often would still be best though IMO, even under the above scenario; I'd change at least 20% every other a week or so.
 
I really don’t know the answer...... perhaps not performing water changes is healthier than doing water changes?

However, not carrying out water changes for a year, sounds more like an experiment to see if anything can survive, rather than a fishkeeper doing his best to give his fish a nice home?
 
The trouble with a lot of articles is they treat all glass boxes full of water as the same and fail to mention how many different factors go into what works including (but not limited to):

What's in the water you start with - the hardness and the minerals that make that up
What's in the water you top off evaporation with
The substrate in your tank - including depth, compactness and ability to 'store and exchange nutrients'
The species and volume of plants you put in your tank, whether they are emersed or not, and the rate they grow (itself influenced by a whole load of factors)
Lighting - both artificial and ambient - intensity and duration
The fertilisers you use, what they contain, how frequently you use them (and whether you actually do it as often as you plan)
The fish you have - size, quantity, metabolic rate and feeding types
The food you feed you fish - both type, quantity and frequency
Hardscape - rocks, wood etc. that may leach, absorb or react
Temperature - can effect decomposition rates and fish feeding habits etc.
The environment around the tank - temp, humidity, air quality

So when you are trying to copy something someone has done successfully it's a lot more complicated than just asking how often they change water and doing the same.
 
Hi all,
Sacha said:
I want a substrate that is going to be good for the lifetime of the tank (many years) and never need replacing.
Click to expand...
If you really wanted to try no water change, you would need a substrate with some carbonate content, because nitrification will use up the carbonate reserve, and you won't be replenishing it with water changes.
AverageWhiteBloke said:
I think most people running low tech still dose around 10 percent of the EI values and do some water changing now and again. @dw1305 doesn't use co2 at all and low tech stuff is his thing but I think he still changes a bit of water weekly.
Click to expand...
I do, I change some water even if the tanks don't have any fish in them. I don't add fertilisers on a regular basis (because I use the <"Duckweed Index">), but I think @AverageWhiteBloke's "~10% of EI" estimate is probably in the right ball park.

There is further discussion of water changes in @JMorgan's <"Understanding adaptations to ....."> thread.

cheers Darrel
 
Just invest in a Python type system & water changes are a breeze
- note I just start the syphon the old fashioned way & gravity drain to yard or toilet depending on rain ... then adjust tap mix to a suitable temp a few degrees cooler than tank & refill, add Prime etc for entire tank volume when using this method

I’ve played around with limited water changes, plants can do awesome with just top up for months (Spec 19 LED version 1 running with Tropica AS Powder & occasional Tropica fertilizer application, even less frequent Seachem Excel dose)

I did the same for a fish system when (unusual) hot dry spring - summer (& extreme smoke) meant water looked & smelled questionable out of tap ... after the fall rains began I started up again with water changes
I didn’t lose any fish through those no change months (over 3 months) but fish activity dropped & I noticed a big difference with the return of weekly large water changes
Interestingly tank parameters showed very little drift in terms of easily measured Nitrogen’s, GH, KH etc over that time, pH had dropped to 5.8-6.0 vs usual 6.0-6.4
Tank was lightly stocked with S vaillanti - as some fish notes (including seriously fish) recommended limited water changes with Sphaerichthys species it seemed worth a go
I won’t do this method again with these fish, there’s no doubt they enjoy syphon chasing & the “new” water
 
Regarding no waterchanges: when i came in the hobby "old water"was still a thing. The older the water in the tank the better.
Today we think there will be build up of metabolites in the water which need removing now and then. Filters can help, but can't remove/alter everything. The slower the growth and the lighter the fish/animal load the fewer toxic metabolites will be produced. So again like all tanks it will be a balancing act, though i think some waterchanges will enhance health.
I have alway used regular riversand in all my tanks, this wll stay good "forever" ( not to fine, mixed size from 1-5 mm) I do like my trumpet snails to keep my sand healthy. Adding some clay under it might help.
 
I can't really see the point of not changing some water, the benefits far out weigh the negatives in my mind.

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk
 
Sacha said:
(by my calculations the Rio 240 comes equipped with 1.1 wpg LEDs so ideal for low tech).
Click to expand...
Major bad assumptions for a start. Watts per gallon is for T5HO tubes and US gallon, not LED's and UK gallons.

The 240 LED's are 6670 Lumens. An equivalent length T5HO tube is 3200lumens per tube, two tubes 6400lumens.

240 litres is 64 US gallons. Thus your are 2Watts per gallon, immediately into high(ish) level lights.

Another way looking at is, 240 tank height is 20inches, two T5HO tubes (equivalent to your LED), well and truly places into high light level.

parreading_zps8b784252-jpg.jpg


So CO2, EI ferts, weekly water changes are a necessity of keeping plants in this tank. Or reduce light levels. Is there a dimmer for the Jewel LEDs ?
 
Yep, and you could talk to old guys who could remember the old days, when people used to change the water. :)
 
Well I can go back for around 45 years of water changing!
Rain water was the big thing to use in planted tanks, I followed the Dupla method and that was 25% a week.
If I ran short of rain water, I would raid my mums water butt, then my brothers and neighbours if we had a dry spell.
Ha ha the good old days.
 
Many thanks for all the replies.

ian-m, I will not be using Co2 on this tank. I don't know if the lights are dimmable - I assume they are not.

From reading all of the links Darrel provided, I think I will opt for 20-25% water changes, every two weeks.

How much substrate would I want in a 240 litre tank? And can anyone recommend something cheaper than Tropica AquaSoil because a quick calculation suggests I would be spending around £140 on soil?

Thanks again.
 
foxfish said:
I just used cat litter on my last low tech.
Click to expand...

I'll second that. I have a 5gallon fermenting bin full of the stuff which I just rinse and re-use for impromptu small tanks and scapes. I think it was about £3/4 for 25 ltrs. never had any issues with it.
 
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