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Fish room, breed for profit and licencing.

N

nathanaldo07

New Member
Joined
1 Nov 2021
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18
Location
Merseyside, UK
I posted a thread a couple of days ago titles; 'Shipping live aquatics in the UK. How can I do this? Can I do this?' and in that thread I said I wanted to breed for fun on a small scale. However, after looking at figures I have been wondering if I could implement this 'breed for profit' business model into my business, based on eBay. I am unsure as to how much profit is to be made, but this still isn't my priority as my main focus would be on breeding. I would want to only focus on breeding shrimp and snails. I have made this thread today, again to ask for your advice on how I can actually do this properly. I would want to be able to ensure I will not be hit with a fine for not having a license, but also so I can create a setup which can produce high quality, high grade, healthy Aquatic Invertebrates.

My first question is, again, regarding licencing and the 'Pet Shop Licence' specifically. This is because I would be producing and selling enough shrimp/snails to where it would no longer be considered as selling the offspring of a pet. However, I am unsure as to whether I would actually need this licence as The Pet Animals Act 1951 (Revised 2018) states that '“animal” includes any description of vertebrate;', which I'm assuming means that only vertebrate animals require us to have a licence. And given that Shrimp and snails are Invertebrates, I would not need a licence to sell them?

My second question is in regard to the set-up. Where is the cheapest place to get fish tanks, around 45 litres (10 gallons) in size? I have seen many things about the 'dollar per gallon sale' which Americans are lucky enough to get. I was wondering if there are any sales like this that go on in the UK, as a sale like this would mean I'd be spending ~£10 per tank as opposed to ~£50 per tank (which is the cheapest I have seen.)
I was think as far as to try get them from manufacturers and buy them through the business like I was going to sell them myself, just to cut out the middle man. ;)

My third question is also related to the legal side of things, would I be able to have this set up in a shed in the garden without any problems? This shed would be of a size to where it does not require me to get planning permission.
 
Okay so the plan...

Start off with one rack (1800mm high x 1200mm long x 450mm deep) with 3 shelves with an even spacing between each one (maximum weight per shelf is 300kg). each shelf would have 3 45l tanks, so a total of 9 tanks. All of this would preferably be inside of an insulated, heated shed in the garden big enough to accommodate multiple tanks.

Each tank would have a Hamburg matten filter in the shape of a regular sponge filter (the image below) powered by a shared air pump (shared between the tanks on that shelf.) each tank will be lit by a 10W 800 lumen led floodlight.
DSC_0790-1.jpg
Each tank which needs a higher temperature will have a heater but I would aim to just heat the room to save on cost.

I would also want to have all of the tanks connected to a drain for ease when it comes to water changes.

What I would like to breed...

In terms of shrimp, I would want to breed:
  • Neocaridina davidi
    • Red cherry shrimp
    • Orange sakura shrimp
    • Yellow sakura shrimp
    • Green jade shrimp
    • Blue velvet shrimp
    • Black rose shrimp
In terms of snails, I would want to breed:
  • Bladder snails
  • Ramshorn snails
    • Pink variation
    • Blue variation
  • Assassin snails
  • Malaysian trumpet snails
  • Apple snails (Gold variation)
  • Rabbit/ elephant snails
I am fully aware that some of these are harder to breed than others, however, these are the best ones I've found in terms of ease of breeding and sales on ebay.

I am also aware that all these species will not be able to fit into just 9 tanks and breed successfully, I would want to do species and variation only tanks (e.g. pink ramshons in one tank and blue ramshorns in another.)

If anybody has any recommendations/ changes they would make to this set up then I would really appreciate hearing them. :)
 
Best place to check would be your local council licensing department - even if you don't need one you are less likely to run into problems if you've contacted them to check rather than they chase you to see if you are in scope.
 
I agree with Tam, contact the council to see where you are. In the past it was true that if you only sold inverts then you didn't need a license and this is where many shed sellers popped up in the marine world causing lots of anger from bricks and mortar shops. A few councils were made aware of this and we're trying to change their rules so that you did need a petshop license if you sold inveterates as well but I'm not sure if this actually came into force or where it did if it did change.
Our local rules here have changed fairly recently with greater traceability becoming the biggest new factor.
 
mort said:
I agree with Tam, contact the council to see where you are. In the past it was true that if you only sold inverts then you didn't need a license and this is where many shed sellers popped up in the marine world causing lots of anger from bricks and mortar shops. A few councils were made aware of this and we're trying to change their rules so that you did need a petshop license if you sold inveterates as well but I'm not sure if this actually came into force or where it did if it did change.
Our local rules here have changed fairly recently with greater traceability becoming the biggest new factor.
Click to expand...

Yes, I heard they were looking to change the rules but I saw that on a forum dated back to 2008 so I thought that maybe this rule never actually got changed as the 'Pet Animals Act 1951' was revised in 2018 and still said that this only applied to animals with vertebrae.

I will definitely make sure I check with the council though before I actually start the project.
 
I'm not trying to be negative or put you off in any way but the first thing I would do is calculate the cost of materials and what you realistically think you might be able to make. Insulating a shed properly can cost alot as they aren't really designed to keep the heat in, just the worst weather out. I have been in a few shed fish houses and it can be done but you need good ventilation to stop mold and if can be expensive to keep it warm in winter. Going temperate can help with running costs and lots of your stock will be happy with that, so you could keep it cooler and have a little tank in the house for things you need to keep warmer.

I'm only stressing the running costs and initial outlay as breeding often makes quite a big loss for most people and it's just the love of doing it that is the reason why they continue. It can be far better to start with just a tank or two and then expand as you find you make money and build it up slowly from there. A couple of tanks can often pay for another display tank but if you do want to go bigger then try to cost it out to see if it's viable for you.
 
Keep in mind too, that if you are running a business with shrimp etc. you won't be able to sell fish etc. that do fall under licensing under the 'hobby' heading.
 
Re question 2 - cheap tanks. Would you need "fish tanks"?
Could you use plastic storage boxes?
A 35L box from Really Useful Storage Boxes is about £15, and whilst it's not remotely as clear as glass, as a breading tank, do you care?
 
idris said:
Re question 2 - cheap tanks. Would you need "fish tanks"?
Could you use plastic storage boxes?
A 35L box from Really Useful Storage Boxes is about £15, and whilst it's not remotely as clear as glass, as a breading tank, do you care?
Click to expand...

I currently have 2 90l black tubs and one 45l black tub which I am trying to use to grow stem plants. I like them and probably could use them for snails, however I wouldn't want to use them with shrimp as I would want to be able to see straight into the tank to be able to diagnose any problems that may occur. Also the bowing is a problem, not as much with the 45l as it is smaller, but the 90l bow a lot. The 45l were very cheap though, just £7.99 each from home and bargains.
 
mort said:
I'm not trying to be negative or put you off in any way but the first thing I would do is calculate the cost of materials and what you realistically think you might be able to make. Insulating a shed properly can cost alot as they aren't really designed to keep the heat in, just the worst weather out. I have been in a few shed fish houses and it can be done but you need good ventilation to stop mold and if can be expensive to keep it warm in winter. Going temperate can help with running costs and lots of your stock will be happy with that, so you could keep it cooler and have a little tank in the house for things you need to keep warmer.

I'm only stressing the running costs and initial outlay as breeding often makes quite a big loss for most people and it's just the love of doing it that is the reason why they continue. It can be far better to start with just a tank or two and then expand as you find you make money and build it up slowly from there. A couple of tanks can often pay for another display tank but if you do want to go bigger then try to cost it out to see if it's viable for you.
Click to expand...
I'm thinking I might just start off with snails in the 45l tubs to begin with and slowly work my way up from there. Which I can keep up in the room which i currently use so I don't have to suffer the costs for a shed 😅

the only reason I wanted to build a shed was because I was worried about the floors being not strong enough to hold a rack with 9 45l tanks on it given that it is not on the ground floor.
 
nathanaldo07 said:
I was worried about the floors being not strong enough to hold a rack with 9 45l tanks on it given that it is not on the ground floor.
Click to expand...
I'm not a structural engineer, so don't blame me if this is wrong, but ...

In the UK, houses of any age typically have the same floor construction for both ground floor and first floor. ie floor boards over joists. All the garden sheds I've had have had floors with far thinner floor boards. So having your tanks on the first floor is probably as good a place as any.

Additionally, 45L is roughly 7st, and you wouldn't worry much about having 9 friends jumping up and down in your kids' bedroom.

I'd worry more about any shelving being up to the job.

So in my uncertified, uninsured, unreliable opinion, you don't need to worry about the weight on your floors.
[Terms and conditions apply. The elevation of your floors can go up as well as down. Yiur house may be at risk if you do not keep up structural support.]
 
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The margins are quite low for shrimp, and shrimp at scale isn’t achievable with your setup. You want 1000L vats; with an airstone and just feed that every other day. Water changes are important too.

45L tanks; you could empty your stock in a day. You’ll likely turn into a seller who only sells immature shrimp, or is forever out of stock. 

I used to breed cherries, in a “pond” in a garage, with a heater as cheap way to feed “luxury” to some of my bigger fish. Even then, I could decimate the population if I wasn’t careful. 15 turned into 1000+ in year, maybe more than a year. I was also selling direct to store. I’ll hunt out a photo.

Good luck, it’s a fun challenge but I don’t think you’d make enough to pay off the costs to get going.

Snails are good sellers btw, just a PIA tbh.
 
Have to agree with @castle - whilst I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm for what will be an interesting project @nathanaldo07, from a purely financial perspective Neo shrimp just don't sell for enough to make you a sufficient return to cover your costs in such small tanks.

With tanks that size, the better money is in Caridina, but then water parameters and care are more critical. If you have soft water from the tap, it might be worth looking into those, but if not you'd need an RO unit, adding to your costs.

Take a look at Shrimp Marketplace on Band, and you'll get an idea of what current breeders sell their stock for, but to give you some examples, standard Neo's (like cherries) tend to sell for about £1 each - often less in bigger quantities. More unusual varieties might be nearer £2 each for good grades (less for culls and lower grades). Caridina by contrast can sell for £3.50 for standard CRS/CBS, going up to £5+ for rarer Tiger's and Bee's, and sometimes over £20 a shrimp for Galaxy Fishbones and the like. Obviously the price reflects the difficulty of breeding the shrimp, but that's probably your best chance of a return if you can master their care and procreation on a smaller scale.
 
castle said:
The margins are quite low for shrimp, and shrimp at scale isn’t achievable with your setup. You want 1000L vats; with an airstone and just feed that every other day. Water changes are important too.

45L tanks; you could empty your stock in a day. You’ll likely turn into a seller who only sells immature shrimp, or is forever out of stock. 

I used to breed cherries, in a “pond” in a garage, with a heater as cheap way to feed “luxury” to some of my bigger fish. Even then, I could decimate the population if I wasn’t careful. 15 turned into 1000+ in year, maybe more than a year. I was also selling direct to store. I’ll hunt out a photo.

Good luck, it’s a fun challenge but I don’t think you’d make enough to pay off the costs to get going.

Snails are good sellers btw, just a PIA tbh.
Click to expand...

Wookii said:
Have to agree with @castle - whilst I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm for what will be an interesting project @nathanaldo07, from a purely financial perspective Neo shrimp just don't sell for enough to make you a sufficient return to cover your costs in such small tanks.

With tanks that size, the better money is in Caridina, but then water parameters and care are more critical. If you have soft water from the tap, it might be worth looking into those, but if not you'd need an RO unit, adding to your costs.

Take a look at Shrimp Marketplace on Band, and you'll get an idea of what current breeders sell their stock for, but to give you some examples, standard Neo's (like cherries) tend to sell for about £1 each - often less in bigger quantities. More unusual varieties might be nearer £2 each for good grades (less for culls and lower grades). Caridina by contrast can sell for £3.50 for standard CRS/CBS, going up to £5+ for rarer Tiger's and Bee's, and sometimes over £20 a shrimp for Galaxy Fishbones and the like. Obviously the price reflects the difficulty of breeding the shrimp, but that's probably your best chance of a return if you can master their care and procreation on a smaller scale.
Click to expand...

How many shrimp do you think id be able to produce in 45l in a month would you say as this was what I was finding very hard to work out when trying to work out profit margins to see if this would be a profitable idea.

thanks for your input, I was thinking of caridina shrimp but I thought it would be better to start off with neocaridina. Anyways, on ebay I was looking at prices for some neocaridina species, some were going for 30 to 40 pound for 10 shrimp
 
Most people breed for fun and then if it makes any money on top it’s a bonus, I think it’s very difficult to make this profitable. Even with rare desirable species of fish there’s not much money to be made.

For example I have a pair of apistogramma lineata, it’s a pretty rare species with not many in the uk I’d imagine. I paid over 60quid for the pair. Time you include a breeding tank with equipment, say another 80-100 pounds. That’s without including the electric costs, feed and my time. Then even if I manage to breed them and raise the fry to a good size which includes even more of my time to undertake lots of water changes etc, more food, more electricity costs, there’s no way I could sell them for the price I bought them at.

To be fair I’d just want to circulate them with proper breeders that I know could care for them and circulate the species in the hobby, any money would be secondary.

You have to remember the foreign farms are doing this on a huge scale and selling most species very cheap on to wholesalers. Us hobbyists just can’t compete with this.

Cheers
 
If you can afford a little tank then the best thing to do is give it ago and see how successful you are. If it doesn't turn out to be profitable then at least you haven't had much outlay and you've had a nice little shrimp tank. If it takes off then you can extend things.

The problem with ebay is its often a race to the bottom on price, so what once sold at a nice margin, barely scrapes a profit once you've factored in all the scammers. I do think a nice ramshorn and decent shrimp combination could mean the tank pays for itself eventually, especially if you had some quick growing popular plants as well.
 
As others have said, you are trying to enter a very competitive yet low cost and low volume market so doubt you can ever recoupe your costs.
Selling by post is fraught with problems and expense, least of all relying on the buyers to be honest about any stock being dead on arrival etc.

Think you will be better to continue your breeding but on a purely hobby basis, but think you will find some of your LFS will be happy to take some of your excess stock in exchange for a credit note for use in their shop, though only expect about one third of the retail price.
 
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