Fishless cycle - nutrient question

[magpie]

So.... I'm doing a DSM start on the 90x75x45 Optiwhite -details in the journal. While researching DMS on Tom Barr's site, I came across this:

You can also cycle the filter with mulm from another tank or start it running
on the other tank if available. If not, take the filter and place in/out in a small bucket and add NH3 to do fishless and tankless cycling. After 3-4 weeks running at rich NH3 levels in the bucket, the filter ought to be some what cycled. Adding a pinch of soil from outside to the bucket helps start things off well too. Why run a filter in the tank itself(dealing with algae if the lights are added, and doing large water changes to remove the NO3 leftovers, or NO2 etc) if someone does FC? Do it in a small bucket.

Another common sense brain slapper

I don't have filter from another tank and the four closest LFS (Maidenhead Aquatics, PAH, two garden centres) have all refused to give me some. I could get some from TGM, but I'm 90 minutes away on a good day and I gather (see later links) it doesn't travel well.

S0: Fishless cycling.

Like everything else, it seems to be full of superstitious learning but if Tom says it's a brain-slapper, I'll try it.
The best link I've found so far is here: http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/The_Art_of_Fishless_Cycling

From which I gather:
Basic nitrogen cycle: Ammonium -> Nitrite -> Nitrate -> Plants = good.
Bacteria needed for steps 1 and 2 (NH4 - N02 and N02 - N03)
Those bacteria thrive best at:
- temp around 28 C
- pH 7 - 8 - definitely not acidic
- high ish GH and KH (my tap water, for once, is ideal)
- Ammonia 1ppm -

The last one is key - most of the fishless cycle stuff suggests kicking up to either 2 or 4 ppm - which will kill the bacteria who work stage 2. So it takes longer - basically until there are enough stage 1 types to chew up all the ammonia and allow the stage 2 to get going. If you keep at around 1ppm, then the stage 1 and 2 grow together.

But first you need the bacteria. Soil is one source. I bet worm juice is another, tho' I haven't read it yet. But it seems that at least one of the proprietary bacterial sources is OK - Tetra SafeStart - if it's in date, if it's been kept cool (!) is the bees' business. http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Bacteria_bottles,_do_they_work

So: I have a bucket set up, have put soil in a sock and a bit of worm juice just because I can. I've dumped in my last few dribbles of Safe Start tho' the bottle was nearly out of date when I bought it, so it was probably expensive garbage. But I can get more

My question - yes, there is one - bacteria need a food source. I can titrate 1ppm ammonia daily, but is there a better method of providing nitrogen to what is essentially a bucket of water? No fish or other livestock will ever go near this - it's simply getting as much bacteria on my substrate as I can before I put water in the tank (at which point, I will flush like crazy because it has Colombo flora-base and whereas it doesn't give off as much NH4 as ASA or the like, I bet it'll exceed 1ppm)

thoughts welcome

mx

 

[NeilW]

Have you tried just putting a post in the for sale/swap/wanted section? Just put your location and you may be able to find someone closer for some media donation.

 

[magpie]

I know - but this way I"m learning more - like, for instance... part of the point of DSM is to create a bacterial soup in the substrate - for which reason, I should have been using tap water (dechlorinated) from the start - which would have kept pH, GH and KH up. If I hadn't read the links, I'd still be using rainwater and probably wonder why I had an algal overgrowth at the start (no active bacteria = algae, unless there are a lot of growing stem plants, as far as I can tell) - maybe I still will, but this way is more of a learning curve.
which is the point.

but thank you anyway

mx

 

[arty]

I found some time ago different info about bacteria grow. 28C is little high, amonia produces more toxic.
The best is 25C and bacteria grow better.
Also ph over 7 not best, less toxic amonia in slightly acidic water.
About how much bacteria need added in to substrate, i realy think does not matter, anything strongest bacterias survive and make replicas and weak die. That one reason why better get already some well astablished bacteria source from others. I personaly tried adding extra bacterias and got in result bacteria bloom for short time - bacterias start fight. Good or bad this fighting i don't know
Why do You think fed with Nitrate ?
Nitrate is end product NO3.
Bacterias need Amonia and Nitrite NO2, but NO2 not necessary, bacterias Amonia convert already to NO2.
Long time ago i got for cheap price amonia solution in drug stores, is very suitable for feeding bacteria, need add just a little. But i don't remember exact chemical full name of this solution and now so many different solutions.
I looking now this link from Yours post to Wikipedia and i'm not sure about words:
"just don't want to grow around a pH of 6-6.9
Aim for a GH of at least 6dH"

An many other things, so complicated in this wikiepida studies recomendations. I think bacteria grow can wherever.


Best Regards,

 

[ceg4048]

My question - yes, there is one - bacteria need a food source. I can titrate 1ppm ammonia daily, but is there a better method of providing nitrogen to what is essentially a bucket of water? No fish or other livestock will ever go near this - it's simply getting as much bacteria on my substrate as I can before I put water in the tank (at which point, I will flush like crazy because it has Colombo flora-base and whereas it doesn't give off as much NH4 as ASA or the like, I bet it'll exceed 1ppm)

Well, really there ought not to be a mystery here. You're running a filter in a bucket and you're doing exactly the same thing to the filter as you are to the sediment in the tank. The filter media is the filter's equivalent to sediment in the tank. At the end of the day there is no difference.

Just like in your sediment, the filter bacteria need more than just ammonia. They need carbohydrates, which they get from the mulm. The same mulm that the filter gathers when it's attached to the tank. They also need PO4 (does that surprise anyone?)

Well, how does a filter gather these components when attached to a tank? Anything that rots produce ammonia. Anything that was alive is made of carbon, and rots when not alive which produces ammonia, carbohydrates and PO4.

Well, how about fish food? What do you think happens to it when left uneaten in a fish tank? The correct answer is that it rots, produces ammonia as a result of the rot, breaks down in structure and releases ammonia, PO4, and carbohydrates. This is how you get mulm in the first place. That's what mulm is.

Fish flakes are basically dried plant matter, so really, any plant matter will do exactly the same thing. You've already got plants and bacteria growing inside the tank. If you needed to seed your filter you could just use some of that to inoculate your filter. I can't see why anyone needs to spend hard earned cash on "proprietary bacteria". It's completely absurd. I mean, that's like someone selling proprietary cat urine. This reminds me of Monty Python's classic "Life of Brian" where Brian and his mother are on the way to witness an execution. It's to be an execution by stoning and there is a stone vendor trying to sell them "special" stones. Five feet away there are millions of stones all over the ground. It's a desert for goodness sake!

One could hardly stop the bacteria from getting in the filter or tank. Bacteria are often airborne, they crawl over every surface on the planet and they kill more people in the world that every war put together. It baffles me why people fret over this. Species Nitrobacter or Nitrosomos are everywhere. They are out in your garden, out in the street, your garbage can, your toilet, your kitchen sink - they're probably in your bed and in those cheesy smelling tennis trainers stashed away in the closet. You can't get away from them (now that's something to worry about). Anything that rots in this world has bacteria, and their populations are so strong and they are so resilient that people have to use antibiotics, bleach, peroxide, and an army of toxic substances to get rid of them - and they keep coming back.

What I'm saying is that you don't need some kind of special incubation chamber from "A Space Odyssey" to grow bacteria. You just need time. Fill your bucket with water, fill the media chambers add some fish food (you can even add it directly to the filter media for that matter) power up the filter and carry on. If you want higher populations then sure, add some ammonia from that bottle under the kitchen sink, but you can just as well add old leaves or pieces of fish gut from the market. That's how easy it is.

There is one difference between adding organic matter versus ammonia from the bottle beneath the sink. Bacteria need oxygen to generate NO2/NO3. Organic matter reduces the O2 levels as a result of the rot, so avoid using excessive amounts of organic matter. Keep the bucket open to air and ensure plenty of surface disruption to get more O2 into the water. Same principles as in a non-planted tank. In 4 weeks the filter will be fine. Don't worry too much about GH, pH, optimal temperatures and so forth. You won't be able to tell the difference between 20 trillion, trillion, trillion bacteria and 500 trillion, trillion, trillion bacteria.

Cheers,

 

[magpie]

Thanks Clive... was on my way to get fish food this morning - seemed the best option - have already chucked some plants into the bucket - now sit back and wait....

me hero, as ever

ta

mx