Fluval Studio 900...'Dragons Crypt' Journal finished.

[Ady34]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Crypt melt and remedy!

Crypt melts in my tank when I get low on CO2.. For example bottle is running out and I detect it too late. Once they get accustomed to CO2 and higher light they are like junkies.

PH swing is not issue but CO2.

Yes, that's correct. Crypts could care less about changing water parameters. They don't like it when CO2 is changing in the negative direction though. Holes in plants, assuming not due to predation, is always a CO2 issue.

Cheers,

Hi Radik and Ceg,
with reference to the c02 'running out' and changing 'in the negative direction', i presume this means a reducing of c02 concentration/availability? Is it the actual change in c02 concentration they dont like or the fact that they arnt getting the quantities they need? It seems a silly question, but i know crypts can fare well in non pressurised c02 tanks, and before going 'high tech' i never used to get crypt melt.... admittedly they never thrived, but they never melted (i suppose in non c02 injected tanks there is no change in c02 either way so perhaps i have just answered my own Q, but clarification would be appreciated). Also is it crypts in particular that cannot 'adapt' to reducing/fluctuating c02, or do they just show it in a more extreme way? As you will have read, i have also started dosing mineral salts (Mg, Ca & K), is it feasable that the crypts pre c02 running out, were compensating for the lack of these minerals with the uptake of c02 (at good levels).... i know plants can adapt to deficiencies in some minerals, but with the c02 running out also was this a step too far in their 'coping' mechanisms? Unfortunately there was a lot of changes going on in my tank at the time (c02 reducing, introduction of liquid carbon as a substitute, removal of glass covers= more intensity of light, stopping of buffering) which isnt good and will probably mean ill never pinpoint exactly the reason... if not a combination of them all!!
Sorry for getting so in depth about it, i know hitting the right levels of c02, and consistency of delivery is the key, but its just interesting to learn more about the relationships involved.
As a slight aside, I know algae can thrive in fluctuating c02 (eg when cylinders are running out), but is this down to the changing c02, or the way the plants are responding to the c02 changes, ie not thriving and thus unable to outcompete the algae?
Also i noted in my previous post

i now have some deformation effecting new leaf growth on the crypts, and curling of the leaves on the hygrophila pinnatifida.

Is this likely to be attributed to low c02 concentrations, or some other defficiency?
Thanks.

Hi Ady, what are the crypts with the red underleaf please?

Hi Chris,
they are crypt wendtti 'brown' and crypt wendtti 'tropica', i couldnt tell you exactly as they have intermingled, i suspect from what i remember of planting the more red undersides are likely to be the 'tropica' variety. Thing with crypts is they all seem to grow and look different in different tanks!

Cheerio,
Ady.

 

[Ady34]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Water change night again...

Tank ticking along nicely again with no further crypt melt issues since adding mineral salts weekly and also upping the c02 introduction.... still tweaking, but hopefully getting there!

Water change night again, took a couple of different shots and thought id share them.

and a couple of the fish....

Cheerio,
Ady.

 

[creg]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Water change night again..

one of my favourite tanks on here, beautiful

 

[Ady34]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Water change night again..

one of my favourite tanks on here, beautiful

Wow, thanks Creg, thats real nice to hear!
It lacks the refinement of some but its enjoyable to watch.
Cheers,
Ady.

 

[awtong]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Water change night again..

I really like it too. Glad you seem to have sorted your Crypt issues. I am a bit of a Crypt-aholic

Andy

 

[Mr P]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Water change night again..

that is a really nice looking tank,very impressed,keep up the good work.skankypup

 

[Ian Holdich]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Water change night again..

again, i also <3 this tank. I love that pic with the Harliquins in (3rd), it gives great depth.

 

[ceg4048]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Crypt melt and remedy!

[
Hi Radik and Ceg,
with reference to the c02 'running out' and changing 'in the negative direction', i presume this means a reducing of c02 concentration/availability? Is it the actual change in c02 concentration they dont like or the fact that they arnt getting the quantities they need? It seems a silly question, but i know crypts can fare well in non pressurised c02 tanks, and before going 'high tech' i never used to get crypt melt.... admittedly they never thrived, but they never melted (i suppose in non c02 injected tanks there is no change in c02 either way so perhaps i have just answered my own Q, but clarification would be appreciated). Also is it crypts in particular that cannot 'adapt' to reducing/fluctuating c02, or do they just show it in a more extreme way? Is this likely to be attributed to low c02 concentrations, or some other defficiency?

A negative change in the CO2 concentration affects all plants adveresly but crypts respond especially poorly to this type of change. It's impossible to understand until one comes to grips with the way in which CO2 is obtained and used. A loss of CO2 typically cause tissue damage which results from the buildup of superoxides and free radicals. Here is a repeat of a summary of superoxide damage discussed in another thread:

The mechanism of CO2 failure has to do with the chain of Reduction-Oxidation (Redox) reactions of photosynthesis. The energy of the light triggers the initial oxidation (electron ejection) of the chlorophyll. There is then a steady stream of electrons along this path and CO2 is used at the end of the chain. Inadequate CO2 causes the electron flow to "back up" which results in electrons being scattered and attracted to whatever molecules or ions that happen to be nearby. This creates some very damaging molecules called "Radicals", some of the most toxic Radicals are actually ionized Oxygen molecules called "SuperOxides". A famous Superoxide is H202, otherwise known as Hydrogen Peroxide and it is extremely toxic because it damages cell walls by pummelling them with the very same electrons it just gained.

This is THE reason CO2 failures cause such havoc, because the plant is unable to produce enough "Anti-Oxidants" to neutralize these free radicals. This is why you see holes in plants, disintegration and meltdown/mushiness when there is insufficient CO2. The plant is being poisoned from within by free radical formation caused by the over-abundance and loss of control of electrons. This is also why turning down the light helps. Less light causes less electron production.

The most important enzyme used to assimilate Carbon from CO2 is Rubisco. Failure of CO2 also affects the efficiency and productivity of this important enzyme as discussed in the thread=> http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=11320

People constantly fail to recognize just how important CO2 and CO2 stability is and how difficult it is to achieve. Non-CO2 enriched tanks have an advantage because although their CO2 level are very low, with time, the plants are able to adjust their internal chemistry to adapt to the low levels, but the levels typically are very stable. In an enriched tank, although the levels are higher, they tend to be unstable or their levels drift over time because we lack total control. This loss of control creates many problems because the plants essentially get "hooked" on a certain concentration level, and like a junkie they suffer severe withdrawal symptoms.

This is why crypts in a non-CO2 tank can flourish but then suffer when we add CO2. Just adding CO2 is not enough. All the downstream events that result in CO2 enrichment also have to be managed.

Cheers,

 

[Ady34]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Water change night again..

Cheers guys,

I really like it too. Glad you seem to have sorted your Crypt issues. I am a bit of a Crypt-aholic
Andy

Thanks Andy, crypts are a true gem of the planted tank.

that is a really nice looking tank,very impressed,keep up the good work.skankypup

Thanks, it feels rude calling you Skankypup!

again, i also <3 this tank. I love that pic with the Harliquins in (3rd), it gives great depth.

Cheers Ian, id like that pic better if it was in focus and had no reflections I think the addition of the anubias to the wood adds and extra layer to the depth, it keeps the eye focusing on the next thing, moving all the way to the back.... a fluke none the less, i dont understand photography!

Thanks very much for the positive feedback, its nice to hear.
Ady.

 

[Ady34]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Water change night again..

Ceg,
http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=11320
This is some read, the full ins and outs of plant/light/c02 relationships, highlighting the need for excellent stable c02, good flow and circulation to get the c02 to the plants fast enough, and the rate c02 is needed by the plant being driven by the amount of light provided!
Pleased im sticking with my current lighting, as increasing it would almost certainly have been a ticking bomb before id mastered the c02 first!
Once again very informative and much appreciated post.
Cheers,
Ady.

 

[Deano3]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Water change night again..

wow beautiful tank mate, i live near u in washington, just trying to get into this hobby and have myself a small nano to get started i have a 7.5l fluval spec with anubius in and have a 30l fluval ebi not set up yet just trying to get the stuff together, any aquatic shops u recomend ? hope my tank looks as good as urs one day,

well looking great will keep watching this one
Dean

 

[Ady34]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... Water change night again..

wow beautiful tank mate, i live near u in washington, just trying to get into this hobby and have myself a small nano to get started i have a 7.5l fluval spec with anubius in and have a 30l fluval ebi not set up yet just trying to get the stuff together, any aquatic shops u recomend ? hope my tank looks as good as urs one day,

well looking great will keep watching this one
Dean

Hi Dean, and many thanks for the compliment.
I also have 2 fluval specs, one with anubias in... and siamese fighters. They were used as a bedside lamps, but now reside in the kitchen for ease of maintenance.
The ebi will definitely give more room for scaping potential and they look like good little set ups.
With regards shops to recommend, its tough around here for anything plant specialist that i know of anyway. I sometimes use Paddock farm water gardens at Croft. They are moving towards the planted side of the hobby and offer some C02 equipment, tropica substrates, oliver knott substrates and tropica fertilisers. They are setting up more display tanks, and expanding there ranges, but i think they are still learning too! Their fish selection is great and the tropical room has a few hidden gems. Plants are tropica (amongst others), reasonably priced but sometimes suffer algae if your not there for delivery day. Its prob about an hours drive from you though. Other than that im sure for fish your aware of Betta Aquaria in Newcastle, they normally have a good selection of healthy fish , and pets at home stock tropica plants at very reasonable prices.
I must admit that i like to support local, but when it came to sorting a planted set up ive made several longer distance trips to the Green Machine in Wrexham. They have everything you need and are very friendly, approachable and knowledgeable. Check out their website if you havnt already, they have some amazing display tanks instore and you can buy online and over the phone from them.
Anyway, hope you get everything sorted, start a journal up and theres tonnes of invaluable information within UKAPS, and plenty of folk willing to help. I knew nothing 7 months ago, and this was my first attempt at planted too. Im sure you will have a nice looking tank, its all about listening, learning and most importantly, experiencing!
Cheerio for now,
Ady.

 

[Ady34]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... C02 issues.

Well c02 woes!
Over the past few days ive been trying to further optimise c02, but have noticed towards the end of the c02 period the fish are acting unusually, hiding away in the corner uninterested in food.
Ive been slowly increasing to get a lime green dc for lights on, and maintain a comfortable level throughout the day. I think i have tipped it over the edge, tonight ive found a dead cardinal tetra, and then a dead otto .
Im really struggling to optimise this and am currently starting c02 injection 3hrs pre photoperiod and off 3hrs before lights out (was 2.5 hrs pre lights out but have reduced this tonight to try and reduce c02 toxicity) To get a lime green dc for lights on and then not increase the c02 so much throughout the day to cause fish distress is proving v. difficult.
The balance between c02 introduction, c02 diffusion, c02 uptake and c02 gas off is very fine and must be tank specific. My bubble rate is uncountable, and although i have heard some glass bubble counters have narrower inlets thus exaggerating the bubble count, i think its a lot (guessing 10bps). Im considering moving to an inline system to see if this gives better results.... opinions on this course of action welcome.
Im also getting a re-occurence of staghorn algae and VERY minor crypt melt again (1 leaf)which is very annoying especially as im trying to optimise c02! Because of the staghorn i began dosing 5ml/day flourish excel 2 days ago also.
Ive uploaded a 3 min video which although not taken for this purpose, and if you have the patience to watch it for the zoom ins, shows quite well the flow and distribution around the tank. This video was taken tonight about 2 hrs after c02 turned off.... the fish have all resumed normal activity and the visible micro bubbles are probably oxygen but they show the flow patterns well.
The c02 diffuser is at the right rear of the tank in amongst the greenery, but c02 is pushed from here directly around the tank from the flow patterns created from the filter and additionally from the koralia circulation pump which sucks c02 misting in and down across the front of the tank into another downward stream and into the middle.

http://youtu.be/QMfjcZY9PXI


I feel that circulation and distribution are good but im not an expert, with the staghorn reappearing, and a tiny bit of crypt melt, combined with what i feel to be the brink of excess c02 (for fish) im at a loss as to whats going on really :?
Any help or advice would be much appreciated.
Cheerio,
Ady.

 

[geaves]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... C02 issues!

Ady, enjoyed watching the video lovely tank, but as a total n00b to this, and I don't mind if you say 'Geoff your talking out your .... mate' but could the flow and the C02 be off setting each other?

What I'm looking at if you have a high flow rate around your tank, which your video clearly shows you would/may have to increase the C02 input for the plants to take in that C02....what I think I'm trying to say is that the C02 is being distributed to quickly for the plants to take it in before it's being lost.

If that makes sense, :?

Geoff

 

[Ady34]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... C02 issues!

What I'm looking at if you have a high flow rate around your tank, which your video clearly shows you would/may have to increase the C02 input for the plants to take in that C02....what I think I'm trying to say is that the C02 is being distributed to quickly for the plants to take it in before it's being lost.

If that makes sense,

Hi Geoff,
yeah i can understand your point and for sure undissolved c02 bubbles may bypass the leaf, however dissolved c02 should be uptaken regardless? Im unsure too about how exactly the plants uptake the c02 and although i know they take it from direct contact and source it as dissolved c02 in the water, i dont know to what extent flow levels effect the latter? From what i have understood from reading and advice, its all about getting it to the leaves. The dc is lime green so im presuming dissolved levels are good, especially with reference to the fish behaviour described. I also then dont know whether the flow i have is too concentrated in 'jets' of water, however all round circulation seems good and all the plants gently sway.
Oh its complicated stuff.
Thanks for the input,
Ady.

 

[Rabb.D]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... C02 issues!

hmm thats a great looking tank Ady... i don't think thats too much flow imo, you might have read this link but i'll paste it anyways just in case viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1167

i know where you're coming from on the co2 issue... i think an inline external diffuser is a great choice i'm using one right now... and i'm happy with the results... and this is Ista i'm using i'm sure the atomizer inline diffuser would work much better, maybe one thing you could do if this makes sense is to extend the pre-light co2 even futher back but reduce the bubble count to have less stress on the fish and get that lime green you want for the dc... i set my co2 at 9.30 am and lights on at 2 pm and when the lights are on its lime green but at a lower bubble count than i used too.. i used to set it at 8bps....now at 4bps, fish have no sign of distress.. plants are doing well... except the hole in the crypts due to the negative change in the Co2 levels... just to compare i have 3 powerheads in my 182 liter with a total of 9000 lph... crazy right..? but the plants couldn't happier considering the ratings are accurate...

 

[Ady34]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... C02 issues!

hmm thats a great looking tank Ady...

Thanks, although its a little frustrating at the moment!

i don't think thats too much flow imo, you might have read this link but i'll paste it anyways just in case viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1167

Hadnt read that link, but very informative, thanks for the heads up! Ceg is def an advocate of the spraybar and it does make a lot of sense. This tank, pre drilled and plumbed however doesnt have spraybar attachments, and its not standard fit pipework. I liked the drilled base to prevent the kids getting hold of filter pipes etc as they are still young, everything is neatly tucked away underneath... its limitations are now being realised, however there are many successful tanks without spraybars so i guess its just optimising what you have.

i think an inline external diffuser is a great choice

I think ill look into them further as the c02 will then be distributed through the main circulation inlets from the filter which may help if there is a distribution issue. Also i may be suffering slightly with plant mass increase and the effect that has on distribution. Clive (ceg) alluded to this in a previous post, it does however seem to be a very fine line and the staghorn is in places of both high and lower flow.

maybe one thing you could do if this makes sense is to extend the pre-light co2 even futher back but reduce the bubble count to have less stress on the fish and get that lime green you want for the dc... i set my co2 at 9.30 am and lights on at 2 pm and when the lights are on its lime green but at a lower bubble count than i used too..

This is something im slowly thinking myself as you can probably tell with the 3hr before lights on period. Maybe i should do the same as you and further increase the period c02 is on before lights but at a lower bubble rate. Its obviously just been a little confusing when you hear the 1 hr pre lights on, 1 hr pre lights off c02 regime and you kind of regiment to that..... its gettin clearer that every tank is different and you tweak accordingly!
Anyway thanks for the link and sharing your experiences, its reassuring to hear others have been through it too.
Cheers,
Ady.

 

[Ady34]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... c0 bloomin 2!

Well to add to the returning staghorn problem i now have more minor crypt melt!!
Back to 2x water changes per week again, flourish excel dosing for a week to rid the staghorn and then to sorting the problem!!!
I think it can be narrowed down now to c02 distribution. Im dosing mineral salts to add c and mg, im adding extra k with the salts too and additional k via 2.5ml daily of easy life kalium (potassium) so these possible reasons for crypt melt are covered.
Ive been optimising the c02 levels, so im now guessing its distribution related. My plants have filled in considerably and this must be effecting things enough to be causing issue or at least adding to it.
I think a move to inline duffusion is the way forward to maximise distribution.
Away for a long weekend so its down to my brother to dose in my absence!
Cheerio,
Ady.

 

[Ian Holdich]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... C0 bloomin 2!

have you moved your drop checker down near the crypts??

 

[Ady34]

Re: Fluval Studio 900... C0 bloomin 2!

Hi Ian,
looking at the tank its the crypts to the right under the branch that are showing some melting. The central crypts, touch wood, are going from strength to strength. The central crypts recieve a rolling current from converging flow patterns, however the right side crypts now are a little bypassed. The koralia pump was directed down towards these, however now when i look at it the bolbitis has spread considerably and diverts the flow and c02 more towards the front glass than across them. Ill give some of the larger bolbitis leaves a trim and see if this helps.

have you moved your drop checker down near the crypts??

i could do however itd have to go on the front glass and the flow is strong here and carries co2 almost directly from the diffuser so wouldnt be point accurate.
Another plant which is struggling in here is the staurogyne repens at the left foreground, this area recieves very good flow and c02 directed along the front glass via the koralia, and also pushed down the front glass from one of the filter returns :?
Im still struggling to get things right... i kind of want to start again, but think maybe i should perservere to sort these issues before moving on!?
Cheerio,
Ady.