Frogbit taken a turn

jameson_uk

Member
Joined
10 Jun 2016
Messages
801
Location
Birmingham
After going through a period of frogbit overtaking the tank it seems to have started dying off. This started several weeks ago and is a mixture of leaves melting, getting holes and generally dying off. I don't think anything has changed in the tank and I have doubled ferts over this period without much impact.

The only thing I have noticed is the amanos spending more time in the frogbit than before (but not sure if this is because it is in poor condition or whether they are submerging it and causing the poor condition). I did also add some Ramshorn snails a while ago but I don't really see them on the frogbit.

Other than upping ferts even further could there be some little detail I have knocked out of kilter or perhaps could it be seasonal with there being more condensation under the hood as it is colder outside the tank?

8bba9630a9f5dd9ad90983fdebc4acf4.jpg
d9de2b0335e2c11d594b916073ef976b.jpg
a59ec2d3752491b74e9a2ab91ed9feb4.jpg
ecb03ddff663a0e95e6c06a2b009321a.jpg
2db6c7b9ec68cf0278465d5132675d9f.jpg
7bc86d6b5ab5e4f4955b33dfac5ba5e6.jpg
3b7c980e700482c29bce94f9a6335085.jpg
9d4d23d17413c06acd9b4f4dc476d47e.jpg
33c996360b4c9ed88a68d760115a976e.jpg
 

dw1305

Expert
Joined
7 Apr 2008
Messages
10,651
Location
nr Bath
Hi all,
I'm not sure which one it is, but it either iron (Fe) and/or Magnesium (Mg) deficiency. It looks like it might have been iron deficiency, but a little while ago? Mainly because the newest leaves look healthier.

cheers Darrel
 

jameson_uk

Member
Joined
10 Jun 2016
Messages
801
Location
Birmingham
Hi all,
I'm not sure which one it is, but it either iron (Fe) and/or Magnesium (Mg) deficiency. It looks like it might have been iron deficiency, but a little while ago? Mainly because the newest leaves look healthier.

cheers Darrel
Seems odd as I don't think much has changed (fert dosing included). My homemade ferts http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone.htm include Epsom salts and CSM+B micros. I started off double dosing but there wasn't any noticeable improvement. I also got some Easy Life Ferro as I thought it might be an iron deficiency (although this seems different to before as there are more leaves disintegrating at the edges and holes in the middle) and have does this in addition to my normal ferts

I think the Easy Life Ferro is a mix of different chelates https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...67361-easylife-ferro-edta-dtpa-gluconate.html (but I suspect the Ferro is a bit of misnomer) it however made the water cloudy which I think means that this is the iron becoming unusable?

Last time I used Seachem Flourish which I think has a mix of iron sources.

Given my water (GH12 / KH5) would it be worth trying something like https://uk.solufeed.com/products/chelates/solufeed-fe-70-eddha-regular ??
 
Joined
17 Aug 2018
Messages
1,098
Location
-
It could be condensation related also... could you leave the lid open a crack to try and reduce this and eliminate this potential cause?
 

Fisher2007

Member
Joined
19 Feb 2018
Messages
432
Location
Warrington
How long has the frogbit been in the tank?

I had similar, with it growing amazingly well for a good few weeks after adding and thrn crashing. I'm not expert but I think it just depletes the nutrients over time, then probably hung in there for a while before starting to fade. As you have done, I upped the dosing a fair bit and it did come back. Took a few weeks though
 

jameson_uk

Member
Joined
10 Jun 2016
Messages
801
Location
Birmingham
How long has the frogbit been in the tank?
It has been in there over three years. For the last year or so it has been rampant and I had obviously managed to get the conditions right for it.

I do wonder whether when I cleaned the spray bars I managed to put them back in a way that is creating more surface flow / condensation or similar.
 

dw1305

Expert
Joined
7 Apr 2008
Messages
10,651
Location
nr Bath
Hi all,
it however made the water cloudy which I think means that this is the iron becoming unusable?
Yes, the cloudiness is a insoluble compound forming from the reaction of two of the ions, and that is likely to be iron phosphate.
Given my water (GH12 / KH5) would it be worth trying something like https://uk.solufeed.com/products/chelates/solufeed-fe-70-eddha-regular ??
I would give it a try. There is also <"Chempak Sequestered Iron"> as an option.
It could be condensation related also
do wonder whether when I cleaned the spray bars I managed to put them back in a way that is creating more surface flow / condensation or similar.
It could be, but I've seen that strange net like decay on my own Frogbit leaves, and it is definitely a nutrient effect.

Have a look at @rusticdr's <"Micronutrient toxicity...."> thread, you can see exactly the same leaf damage (and the thread has <"a happy resolution">).

057e9931929781bfeee936e791255695.jpg


We don't have any scientific data for Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum), but iron deficiency in Duckweed (Lemna minor) cause yellowing and <"snake bite" lesions"> (image (d)), and I think it is these lesions that you can see on the Frogbit.

rm37fig2e.jpg

cheers Darrel
 

Fisher2007

Member
Joined
19 Feb 2018
Messages
432
Location
Warrington
It has been in there over three years. For the last year or so it has been rampant and I had obviously managed to get the conditions right for it.

I do wonder whether when I cleaned the spray bars I managed to put them back in a way that is creating more surface flow / condensation or similar.

For what it's worth I've had frogbit in my 55 litre low tech for a year or more. This tank has a fairly tight fitting glass lid (and always has had) but mine is now doing fine after upping the ferts

As per the post above, I think it is most likely a defiency rather than anything to do with condensation
 

Zeus.

Member
Joined
1 Oct 2016
Messages
3,258
Location
Yorkshire,UK
So pretty high pH 7.8 like my water.
@jameson_uk did you manage to get some Fe EDDHA? If not could send you some as have some Solufeed Fe 7.0 EDDHA, you don't need much. I made a litre stock solution and add about 3ml on micro day to my 500l tank.
 

rusticdr

Member
Joined
15 Aug 2016
Messages
113
Location
India
It has been in there over three years. For the last year or so it has been rampant and I had obviously managed to get the conditions right for it.

I do wonder whether when I cleaned the spray bars I managed to put them back in a way that is creating more surface flow / condensation or similar.
Hi.. I remember reading through ur threads when I was having issues with my frogbits and I think we did converse too.
Anyway my frogbits looked almost like what u have shown in your pics. And it was not due to flow related issues. It was definitely nutrient based. As far as micros are concerned my belief is that they are required in very small quantities and it's very easy to go overboard with them. If u feel that u r ok with ur micro dosing levels try increasing your phosphate levels a bit. To around 5 ppm per week keeping nitrate at 20 to 30 ppm per week. For me that extra phosphate made a huge difference. Pls try it out and let me know if it works. Other stuff like moisture condensation as a cause.. nope.. because my tank is open top. And we both have similar issues.

Tc.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
 

jameson_uk

Member
Joined
10 Jun 2016
Messages
801
Location
Birmingham
I have been away for a week and before I left I double dosed ferts but no real improvement. The limnophilia sessiflora however had gone mental.
704a1db18d743e5ce5bc1a1a19ab58f7.jpg

The shrimp tank which has little to no ferts isn't having any such issues...
3efff55e8306ca90a94c4e07f75a8910.jpg


I have taken it all out and only put back healthy(ish) looking plants and added some from the shrimp tank.

My ferts had also nearly run out so I have mixed up a new batch incase anything had stopped being effective.

What was noticeable was that is was mainly new leafs that were affected. The plants also seemed quite dictate and stems were very thin and broke easily. The plants also didn't have much root structure. The plants on my lower energy tanks tend to end up with 25cm long roots.
f31fef70add2c5a3daa496808b3e391c.jpg
 

tiger15

Member
Joined
14 Mar 2018
Messages
493
Location
USA
My frogbit has gone through bloom and bust cycles. It's in my shrimp bowl that receives a few hour direct sunlight from the window with no filtration or heater. Management is the same, and the only variable is temperature that ranges between 18 to 30 C in winder and summer, the same as ambient room temperature. The bloom is in warm months and bust in winter.
 

jameson_uk

Member
Joined
10 Jun 2016
Messages
801
Location
Birmingham
So thanks to @Zeus. I got hold of some FE EDDHA.

It is difficult to tell if things have improved hugely as it was getting in a bad state to start with and I have topped up with extra plants from other tanks. It does however seem a bit better.

One thing that had me thinking though was some of the plants I added from my shrimp tank seemed to show some of these symptoms only a few days after adding to my main tank. I took some really lush green plants (big ones with long roots) and within a matter of days several of the leaves needed removing.

The shrimp tank has a much less powerful light than the main tank and is a few degrees cooler but if it is just a nutrient deficiency would this show up within a few days? (Particularly considering I have added almost EI levels of ferts).
 

MJQMJQ

Member
Joined
11 Nov 2019
Messages
242
Location
SIngapore
So thanks to @Zeus. I got hold of some FE EDDHA.

It is difficult to tell if things have improved hugely as it was getting in a bad state to start with and I have topped up with extra plants from other tanks. It does however seem a bit better.

One thing that had me thinking though was some of the plants I added from my shrimp tank seemed to show some of these symptoms only a few days after adding to my main tank. I took some really lush green plants (big ones with long roots) and within a matter of days several of the leaves needed removing.

The shrimp tank has a much less powerful light than the main tank and is a few degrees cooler but if it is just a nutrient deficiency would this show up within a few days? (Particularly considering I have added almost EI levels of ferts).
Nope.What you have should be melting as they are adjusting to the different tank conditions.Do u have different water params besides temperature?
 

jameson_uk

Member
Joined
10 Jun 2016
Messages
801
Location
Birmingham
Nope.What you have should be melting as they are adjusting to the different tank conditions.Do u have different water params besides temperature?
A little but not massively. Main tank is just tap water and shrimp tank is about 30% deionised water mixed with tap water. Some plants were taken from my Betta tank which is also just tap water and they have shown the same.

I don't recall seeing any noticeable melt when I have moved plants between tanks before.
 

MJQMJQ

Member
Joined
11 Nov 2019
Messages
242
Location
SIngapore
A little but not massively. Main tank is just tap water and shrimp tank is about 30% deionised water mixed with tap water. Some plants were taken from my Betta tank which is also just tap water and they have shown the same.

I don't recall seeing any noticeable melt when I have moved plants between tanks before.
Yea you shouldnt especially if they have similar parameters.Generally switching between submerged and emersed will cause it to melt.Your ammonia reading is zero too right.
 

jameson_uk

Member
Joined
10 Jun 2016
Messages
801
Location
Birmingham
So a few weeks ago I removed all the Frogbit and only put healthy plants back (along with some healthy plants from my other tanks) just to see what was going on.

I had been dosing fe EDDHA but I am not sure I have been doing it right... (https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/iron-dosing.59886/)

so attached are are some pics of how it is looking now. The lace effect / tyre tracks seem to have largely gone (there are just a few leaves showing this) but I am still seeing some leaves not looking great but I am fairly sure the transparent looking leaves and those where the edges seem to be fading out are just leaves which have been pushed under water. Does this look about right that most of the poor leaves here (these are the few poor plants I separated out) are just down to them being pushed under and getting wet rather than any nutrient defficiency?
MVIMG_20200225_174212.jpg
MVIMG_20200225_174333.jpg
MVIMG_20200225_174428.jpg
MVIMG_20200225_174518.jpg
MVIMG_20200225_174644.jpg
 

dw1305

Expert
Joined
7 Apr 2008
Messages
10,651
Location
nr Bath
Hi all,
so attached are are some pics of how it is looking now.
That looks much better. The new leaves look good.
Does this look about right that most of the poor leaves here (these are the few poor plants I separated out) are just down to them being pushed under and getting wet rather than any nutrient defficiency?
My guess would be that they are the leaves that were nutrient deficient, because it was a deficiency of a non-mobile nutrient (possibly iron (Fe)) the plant can't improve their condition.

I'd probably just pinch them off.

cheers Darrel
 
Top