Frogbit taken a turn

Discussion in 'General Planted Tank Discussions' started by jameson_uk, 22 Oct 2019.

  1. jameson_uk

    jameson_uk Member

    Joined:
    10 Jun 2016
    Messages:
    640
    Location:
    Birmingham
    After going through a period of frogbit overtaking the tank it seems to have started dying off. This started several weeks ago and is a mixture of leaves melting, getting holes and generally dying off. I don't think anything has changed in the tank and I have doubled ferts over this period without much impact.

    The only thing I have noticed is the amanos spending more time in the frogbit than before (but not sure if this is because it is in poor condition or whether they are submerging it and causing the poor condition). I did also add some Ramshorn snails a while ago but I don't really see them on the frogbit.

    Other than upping ferts even further could there be some little detail I have knocked out of kilter or perhaps could it be seasonal with there being more condensation under the hood as it is colder outside the tank?

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
  2. dw1305

    dw1305 Expert

    Joined:
    7 Apr 2008
    Messages:
    9,403
    Location:
    nr Bath
    Hi all,
    I'm not sure which one it is, but it either iron (Fe) and/or Magnesium (Mg) deficiency. It looks like it might have been iron deficiency, but a little while ago? Mainly because the newest leaves look healthier.

    cheers Darrel
     
  3. jameson_uk

    jameson_uk Member

    Joined:
    10 Jun 2016
    Messages:
    640
    Location:
    Birmingham
    Seems odd as I don't think much has changed (fert dosing included). My homemade ferts http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone.htm include Epsom salts and CSM+B micros. I started off double dosing but there wasn't any noticeable improvement. I also got some Easy Life Ferro as I thought it might be an iron deficiency (although this seems different to before as there are more leaves disintegrating at the edges and holes in the middle) and have does this in addition to my normal ferts

    I think the Easy Life Ferro is a mix of different chelates https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...67361-easylife-ferro-edta-dtpa-gluconate.html (but I suspect the Ferro is a bit of misnomer) it however made the water cloudy which I think means that this is the iron becoming unusable?

    Last time I used Seachem Flourish which I think has a mix of iron sources.

    Given my water (GH12 / KH5) would it be worth trying something like https://uk.solufeed.com/products/chelates/solufeed-fe-70-eddha-regular ??
     
  4. Matt @ ScapeEasy

    Matt @ ScapeEasy Member

    Joined:
    17 Aug 2018
    Messages:
    1,111
    Location:
    Lancaster
    It could be condensation related also... could you leave the lid open a crack to try and reduce this and eliminate this potential cause?
     
    jameson_uk likes this.
  5. Fisher2007

    Fisher2007 Member

    Joined:
    19 Feb 2018
    Messages:
    380
    Location:
    Warrington
    How long has the frogbit been in the tank?

    I had similar, with it growing amazingly well for a good few weeks after adding and thrn crashing. I'm not expert but I think it just depletes the nutrients over time, then probably hung in there for a while before starting to fade. As you have done, I upped the dosing a fair bit and it did come back. Took a few weeks though
     
  6. jameson_uk

    jameson_uk Member

    Joined:
    10 Jun 2016
    Messages:
    640
    Location:
    Birmingham
    It has been in there over three years. For the last year or so it has been rampant and I had obviously managed to get the conditions right for it.

    I do wonder whether when I cleaned the spray bars I managed to put them back in a way that is creating more surface flow / condensation or similar.
     
  7. dw1305

    dw1305 Expert

    Joined:
    7 Apr 2008
    Messages:
    9,403
    Location:
    nr Bath
    Hi all,
    Yes, the cloudiness is a insoluble compound forming from the reaction of two of the ions, and that is likely to be iron phosphate.
    I would give it a try. There is also <"Chempak Sequestered Iron"> as an option.
    It could be, but I've seen that strange net like decay on my own Frogbit leaves, and it is definitely a nutrient effect.

    Have a look at @rusticdr's <"Micronutrient toxicity...."> thread, you can see exactly the same leaf damage (and the thread has <"a happy resolution">).

    [​IMG]

    We don't have any scientific data for Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum), but iron deficiency in Duckweed (Lemna minor) cause yellowing and <"snake bite" lesions"> (image (d)), and I think it is these lesions that you can see on the Frogbit.

    [​IMG]
    cheers Darrel
     
    zozo and jameson_uk like this.
  8. Zeus.

    Zeus. Member

    Joined:
    1 Oct 2016
    Messages:
    2,715
    Location:
    Yorkshire,UK
    What's your water like hard/soft ? ppm!
     
  9. Fisher2007

    Fisher2007 Member

    Joined:
    19 Feb 2018
    Messages:
    380
    Location:
    Warrington
    For what it's worth I've had frogbit in my 55 litre low tech for a year or more. This tank has a fairly tight fitting glass lid (and always has had) but mine is now doing fine after upping the ferts

    As per the post above, I think it is most likely a defiency rather than anything to do with condensation
     
    dw1305 likes this.
  10. dw1305

    dw1305 Expert

    Joined:
    7 Apr 2008
    Messages:
    9,403
    Location:
    nr Bath
    Zeus. likes this.
  11. Zeus.

    Zeus. Member

    Joined:
    1 Oct 2016
    Messages:
    2,715
    Location:
    Yorkshire,UK
    So pretty high pH 7.8 like my water.
    @jameson_uk did you manage to get some Fe EDDHA? If not could send you some as have some Solufeed Fe 7.0 EDDHA, you don't need much. I made a litre stock solution and add about 3ml on micro day to my 500l tank.
     
    jameson_uk and dw1305 like this.
  12. rusticdr

    rusticdr Member

    Joined:
    15 Aug 2016
    Messages:
    113
    Location:
    India
    Hi.. I remember reading through ur threads when I was having issues with my frogbits and I think we did converse too.
    Anyway my frogbits looked almost like what u have shown in your pics. And it was not due to flow related issues. It was definitely nutrient based. As far as micros are concerned my belief is that they are required in very small quantities and it's very easy to go overboard with them. If u feel that u r ok with ur micro dosing levels try increasing your phosphate levels a bit. To around 5 ppm per week keeping nitrate at 20 to 30 ppm per week. For me that extra phosphate made a huge difference. Pls try it out and let me know if it works. Other stuff like moisture condensation as a cause.. nope.. because my tank is open top. And we both have similar issues.

    Tc.

    Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
     
  13. jameson_uk

    jameson_uk Member

    Joined:
    10 Jun 2016
    Messages:
    640
    Location:
    Birmingham
    I have been away for a week and before I left I double dosed ferts but no real improvement. The limnophilia sessiflora however had gone mental.
    [​IMG]
    The shrimp tank which has little to no ferts isn't having any such issues...
    [​IMG]

    I have taken it all out and only put back healthy(ish) looking plants and added some from the shrimp tank.

    My ferts had also nearly run out so I have mixed up a new batch incase anything had stopped being effective.

    What was noticeable was that is was mainly new leafs that were affected. The plants also seemed quite dictate and stems were very thin and broke easily. The plants also didn't have much root structure. The plants on my lower energy tanks tend to end up with 25cm long roots.[​IMG]
     
    Mike Moran and dw1305 like this.
  14. tiger15

    tiger15 Member

    Joined:
    14 Mar 2018
    Messages:
    357
    Location:
    USA
    My frogbit has gone through bloom and bust cycles. It's in my shrimp bowl that receives a few hour direct sunlight from the window with no filtration or heater. Management is the same, and the only variable is temperature that ranges between 18 to 30 C in winder and summer, the same as ambient room temperature. The bloom is in warm months and bust in winter.
     
  15. jameson_uk

    jameson_uk Member

    Joined:
    10 Jun 2016
    Messages:
    640
    Location:
    Birmingham
    So thanks to @Zeus. I got hold of some FE EDDHA.

    It is difficult to tell if things have improved hugely as it was getting in a bad state to start with and I have topped up with extra plants from other tanks. It does however seem a bit better.

    One thing that had me thinking though was some of the plants I added from my shrimp tank seemed to show some of these symptoms only a few days after adding to my main tank. I took some really lush green plants (big ones with long roots) and within a matter of days several of the leaves needed removing.

    The shrimp tank has a much less powerful light than the main tank and is a few degrees cooler but if it is just a nutrient deficiency would this show up within a few days? (Particularly considering I have added almost EI levels of ferts).
     
    Mike Moran likes this.
  16. MJQMJQ

    MJQMJQ Member

    Joined:
    11 Nov 2019
    Messages:
    243
    Location:
    SIngapore
    Nope.What you have should be melting as they are adjusting to the different tank conditions.Do u have different water params besides temperature?
     
  17. jameson_uk

    jameson_uk Member

    Joined:
    10 Jun 2016
    Messages:
    640
    Location:
    Birmingham
    A little but not massively. Main tank is just tap water and shrimp tank is about 30% deionised water mixed with tap water. Some plants were taken from my Betta tank which is also just tap water and they have shown the same.

    I don't recall seeing any noticeable melt when I have moved plants between tanks before.
     
  18. MJQMJQ

    MJQMJQ Member

    Joined:
    11 Nov 2019
    Messages:
    243
    Location:
    SIngapore
    Yea you shouldnt especially if they have similar parameters.Generally switching between submerged and emersed will cause it to melt.Your ammonia reading is zero too right.
     
  19. jameson_uk

    jameson_uk Member

    Joined:
    10 Jun 2016
    Messages:
    640
    Location:
    Birmingham
    So a few weeks ago I removed all the Frogbit and only put healthy plants back (along with some healthy plants from my other tanks) just to see what was going on.

    I had been dosing fe EDDHA but I am not sure I have been doing it right... (https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/iron-dosing.59886/)

    so attached are are some pics of how it is looking now. The lace effect / tyre tracks seem to have largely gone (there are just a few leaves showing this) but I am still seeing some leaves not looking great but I am fairly sure the transparent looking leaves and those where the edges seem to be fading out are just leaves which have been pushed under water. Does this look about right that most of the poor leaves here (these are the few poor plants I separated out) are just down to them being pushed under and getting wet rather than any nutrient defficiency?
    MVIMG_20200225_174212.jpg MVIMG_20200225_174333.jpg MVIMG_20200225_174428.jpg MVIMG_20200225_174518.jpg MVIMG_20200225_174644.jpg
     
  20. dw1305

    dw1305 Expert

    Joined:
    7 Apr 2008
    Messages:
    9,403
    Location:
    nr Bath
    Hi all,
    That looks much better. The new leaves look good.
    My guess would be that they are the leaves that were nutrient deficient, because it was a deficiency of a non-mobile nutrient (possibly iron (Fe)) the plant can't improve their condition.

    I'd probably just pinch them off.

    cheers Darrel
     

Share This Page

Facebook Page
Twitter Page
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice