growing ferns horizontal

Discussion in 'Plant Help' started by samc, 30 Aug 2009.

  1. samc

    samc Member

    Messages:
    1,381
    in the short future i am hoping to use bolbitis and needle java. I wanted to use it in the way that amano uses ferns.

    when amano uses them they seem to grow horizontal to the substrate which i like the look of. most of the aquascapes i see ferns in allways grow verticle. does anyone know how amano does this? is it the high lighting he uses?

    i have been thinking over the past few days and i can think of exacly why but have allways noticed he uses them in crevices or under rock edges. maybe this is why they grow this way. if the rizhome is under the edge of something it has to grow horizontal to get light.

    what are your views?
     
  2. GreenNeedle

    GreenNeedle Member

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    2,706
    Location:
    Lincoln UK
    When you grow needle fern it will grow in all directions. a little like a lotus leaf exept no 1 continuous circle.

    I would guess that the scapes with the purely horizontal leaves have trimmed off the ones going in the undesired directions prior to the photos.

    If you look at mine you can see from the same rhizomes that the leaves go in different directions. I guess when they are young they point towards the best space for them to get light and open area and then continue to grow in that direction. They don't seem to change direction at all.

    EDIT : One thing I notice from a quick look at my pics is it could be is flow. The ones in the flow (the top third) grow upward, the ones in the centre third grow horizontal and the ones in the bottom third seem to grow horizontal/downward so maybe that is it.

    AC
     
  3. samc

    samc Member

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    1,381
    thanks andy :thumbup:

    thats something to think about for sure
     
  4. ceg4048

    ceg4048 Expert/Global Moderator Staff Member

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    Available data indicates that Amano does not use high light. Also something to consider....

    Cheers,
     
  5. GreenNeedle

    GreenNeedle Member

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    Lincoln UK
    Including the Man himself who openly admits to using low light.

    AC
     
  6. rawr

    rawr Member

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    Location:
    Enfield
    Check out Tom Barr's journal of the massive tank that he aquacaped and maintains. I remember there being a sort of 'moss wall' but with ferns instead.
     
  7. Mark Evans

    Mark Evans Expert

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    this is a can of worms.

    so 150 MH isnt a 150MH?

    maybe it's the height of the lamp. i'm having the most success i've ever had, cleanest tank i've ever had with the largest light i've ever had over the smallest tank i've ever had....mmmm
     
  8. ceg4048

    ceg4048 Expert/Global Moderator Staff Member

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    Mark,
    All lighting measurements and parameters are meaningless except one; Photosynthetically Active Radiation. Few people obtain a PAR meter so they have no idea what the productivity of their lighting is. Since energy levels are unknown it's not possible to determine what is really high, medium or low light except at the extreme ends. As you've surmised, the height of the suspended pendant is crucial to the level of energy delivery because the energy dissipation is a function of the square of the distance between the energy source and it's destination. This means that if you move the pendant twice as far away the light energy is only a quarter as much. Conversely, halving the distance quadruples the delivered energy. :geek:

    In any case I doubt that you are dosing ADA type, right? If you're dosing EI plus mondo CO2/flow then the tank can handle any possible extreme energy levels, so this wouldn't surprise me at all.

    A 150 MH is always a 150 MH, but where it's mounted is the difference. :thumbup:

    Cheers,
     
  9. GreenNeedle

    GreenNeedle Member

    Messages:
    2,706
    Location:
    Lincoln UK
    height as Ceg says plus the ballast and reflector make a difference too ;)

    Then add to this factor that an MH reflector unit is designed to spread cover a large area evenly. So yes 150W worth of light but spread evenly. A single T5HO will give the same 50/150 reading directly below the tube and then the PAR will fall away as you move away from directly under it. Not a huge amount.

    Goes to prove why DaveSpencer and I keep suggesting 2 x T8. Same wattae as a single T5HO but importantly more tubes mean the light somes from 2 sources and spreads better.

    I am not sure why ADA 150MH is so low really. In my eyes it must be a deliberate intention in its design to either reduce the light via the reflector design or a ballast that does it. This then pleases the masses of people who must have ADA but also believe that high amounts of light are needed. They would then think 150W = (example) 4WPG and are happy whilst the design may make it more equal to 2WPG and therefore give ADA results under Amano level lighting.

    I'm not overly sure that MH is so good really when the LED PAR (Solaris) versus MH PAR tests showed a 75W solaris gave 90% of the PAR of a 250W MH. It gave 110% PUR!!! so that means that like for like wattages the LED unit would give 3.5 x more usable light than an MH. I see that LED is better than flouro but not 3.5x more like 1.25x. Just off observation, no testing and I have never used MH but I think like for like wattages flouro beats MH!!!

    For years and still to this day people who disagree with my statements about light include the 'Fitch Family article' where it suggest Amano uses nearly 4WPG over 125ltr tanks. That article is based on W and they don't believe that Amano openly admits he uses much lower light levels.

    Let the folks who want to believe they need 3,4,5WPG continue with their belief. There is no need for us in the UK to follow suit though. We can read the facts, barrreport has the info on the ADA tanks using ADA MH, barrreport has the tests of PAR using several different makes of T5HO and ballasts, The tests will eventually include PC and MH from what I read and therefore the WPG 'rule' may well be replaced by a rough PAR expectancy 'rule'. Happy days and hopefully many people who have slammed me for suggesting these things with no evidence can eat their humble pie now the evidence is there for all (who want) to see.

    AC
     
  10. Mark Evans

    Mark Evans Expert

    Messages:
    6,492
    Location:
    newark notts.
    allthough high light is not a key factor for supposed high light plants

    of course they will grow, but IMO to get them to do there little tricks I.E HM, M umbrosum crawling/growing horizontal, high light is needed for them to act in that particular way.

    i've grown them all in 2 types of light and the higher light set-up made them act in this way....a special effect if you like.
     
  11. GreenNeedle

    GreenNeedle Member

    Messages:
    2,706
    Location:
    Lincoln UK
    I agree entirely Mark. The question being explored at the moment though is 'what is high light'. Those ADA Iwagumis with flawless HC carpets were running PAR at the equivalent of a single full length T5HO. That goes against all the 'high light' suggestions that we currently use via the WPG rule.

    Time will tell. The tests are still being done and the info gathered. It will help us all and maybe let us understand a little more about light in general and how to use light rather than what power to use.

    AC
     

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