Growing Mosses

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Polytrichum commune occurs on <"mires as well as heaths">. I can't ID your moss to species, but Polytrichum commune is a likely option.

cheers Darrel

 

[parotet]

However they may not be the same species as the mosses sold commercially under these names.

Yes, that's the problem. Some species of bryophytes used in the hobby such as Fissidens fontinalis, Riccardia chamaedryfolia, Fontinalis antipyretica, Leptodyctium riparium, etc. as well as dozens or closely related species can be found in the wild very close to our homes, but it doesn't mean they can adapt to our aquarium. I have tried 4 or 5 species to the moment found on local rivers (with warm water) and I do fail every time... I guess Tropica and other brands not only multiply the plant material (which is for sure the easiest part) but they also work very hard on selecting nice, stable and adaptable varieties. I would bet that temperature is critical for mosses. Even in the warm area where I live, water rarely goes over 20ºC and is probably around 12ºC most part of the year. For example, for a Fontinalis local population grown in tropical waters it shouldn't be a problem to live between 20-26ºC, but even for a Mediterranean Fontinalis living in warmer areas than in the UK, living at 25ºC the whole year can be probably a problem.

An added constraint with mosses is the high variability of the plant material (according to the linked guide, aquatic bryophytes are especially variable due to the different conditions where they grow) but also the low reliability regarding material identification... this hobby lead me to mosses and I guess from on now it will be another "toy" for me. I am beginning to identify what I find but it is really difficult, even having some skills for being a taxonomist in the past and having local identification manuals.

Jordi

 

[zozo]

Are you near Renkum Zozo?

No, unfortunately not, thats a sweetspot for finding (aqautic) mosses, my ex girlfriend lives near Groesbeek. That also is such a sweetspot for finding them. I guess that's why she's my ex, probably looked at the wrong sweetspots to much. I'm all the way down south Limburg also a lot of places (parks) to look but more spread out and smaller, not smack dab in the middle as Gelderlands parks. I could go for Germany, but there they are rather more fond about their nature parks and less freedom there, they don't like to see dutchman ignoring their laws, we dont get warnings we get treated as examples to scare of the rest.. . Scavanging the creeks around the Ardennes is still on my wishlist, didn't come to that yet.

 

[zozo]

Yes, that's the problem. Some species of bryophytes used in the hobby such as Fissidens fontinalis, Riccardia chamaedryfolia, Fontinalis antipyretica, Leptodyctium riparium, etc. as well as dozens or closely related species can be found in the wild very close to our homes, but it doesn't mean they can adapt to our aquarium. I have tried 4 or 5 species to the moment found on local rivers (with warm water) and I do fail every time... I guess Tropica and other brands not only multiply the plant material (which is for sure the easiest part) but they also work very hard on selecting nice, stable and adaptable varieties. I would bet that temperature is critical for mosses. Even in the warm area where I live, water rarely goes over 20ºC and is probably around 12ºC most part of the year. For example, for a Fontinalis local population grown in tropical waters it shouldn't be a problem to live between 20-26ºC, but even for a Mediterranean Fontinalis living in warmer areas than in the UK, living at 25ºC the whole year can be probably a problem.

An added constraint with mosses is the high variability of the plant material (according to the linked guide, aquatic bryophytes are especially variable due to the different conditions where they grow) but also the low reliability regarding material identification... this hobby lead me to mosses and I guess from on now it will be another "toy" for me. I am beginning to identify what I find but it is really difficult, even having some skills for being a taxonomist in the past and having local identification manuals.

Jordi

Did you also take other water parameters than temp in acount? What i found out is that taking moss from somewhere and trhow it in a bucket of other water or on another soil it will shock and wither away. The sudden change is to much for it, some mosses by nature prefere alkaline soils or water if they have propagated there i think you need to let it slowly adapt to more acidic invironment, or other way around. They can but not over night. Moss is very strong when it comes to dry and wet inveronments but when it comes to chemical and or firtilization it can be rather touchy. And quickly damaged.

 

[Tim Harrison]

The linked pdf's are from the site, but the book itself "<"Mosses and Liverworts of the British Isles: A Field Guide"> has much higher quality images. I can honestly say it is one of the best £25 I've ever spent.

I'm going to get me that. At the moment all I have is this http://www.amazon.co.uk/Grasses-Mosses-Lichens-Britain-Ireland/dp/0330259598/ref=sr_1_fkmr3_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1435921767&sr=8-1-fkmr3&keywords=Mosses+and+Liverworts+of+Britain+and+Ireland:+A+Field+Guide

 

[zozo]

Hi all,
Polytrichum commune occurs on <"mires as well as heaths">. I can't ID your moss to species, but Polytrichum commune is a likely option.

cheers Darrel

I did put some of it on my floating piece of driftwood and its changing color kinda like a dark red.

I wonder what is happening to it..

This one in the middle of the emersed HC and Ricia is also a very intersting spieces, i hope it's the Fox Tail.. But now when i see it so close up i'm in doubt again. I hope it grows bigger.

Indeed i have to get more specific information, and watch it under the microscope.. I think i'll have to write an e-mail to the Bryological workgroup if they can provide identification data to know what to look for. At the time i can watch and don't know what the heck i see.

Here you also see the haircap and the other one just above the water line on the wood.

They both grow on stems but crealrly are different.

 

[parotet]

Did you also take other water parameters than temp in acount? What i found out is that taking moss from somewhere and trhow it in a bucket of other water or on another soil it will shock and wither away. The sudden change is to much for it, some mosses by nature prefere alkaline soils or water if they have propagated there i think you need to let it slowly adapt to more acidic invironment, or other way around. They can but not over night. Moss is very strong when it comes to dry and wet inveronments but when it comes to chemical and or firtilization it can be rather touchy. And quickly damaged.

No, I didn't but my tap water comes from the same river I collect the mosses.

I would say that mosses do better in soft water in most cases, at least the ones I've grown that are always from the aquarium trade. I've followed some of the tips mentioned in this thread I opened months ago and they work very well

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/tips-for-growing-moss-really-beautiful-moss.35600/

One of the things a like a lot is that you can easily grow them emerged and they change completely their aspect

Jordi

 

[parotet]

When I woke up this morning I found that Arctic Batman and Iron Man are also interested in mosses...

(Some other Marvel Super Heroes dive regularly in my tanks)

Jordi

 

[zozo]

Today i did my weekly maintenance and because my HC is still suffering from the latest algae breakout and the shades i provided to get the monsters out. It's more dead than alive i decided to take the chance and clear 90% of the floating vegitation to get the light to the bottom and my HC happily bubbling again. I noticed something rather unexpected in my Family Tree didn't notice it before because the whole bunch was densly covered with Salvinia's..

I found a lovely canopy of Crystalwort attached to the tree. Although it is known as a floating liverwort which you have to tie down with specialy develop Riccia line and never will attach by itself because it has no roots. I just threw it in my tank to let it float because mama nature wants it like that. Realy do not know what happened at my tree but it attached itself to it and flourishing brightly green and feeling happy. I can pull it but it's firmly holding on. The same actualy happend with the Utriculari G. and the HC these were just pieces comming loos by itself floating around ending up by the tree and attached to the moss and spread by itself. I guess Riccia has cells that attach and in a way if you provide the proper conditions it will float around till it ends up at a suitable spot with a suitable partner (Maybe it's the partner holding the Riccia. Share luck in my case, but never the less i'm surprised that in my tank Riccia does something i never found a discription of in any documentation a found about it on the contrary it shouldn't do this they say.

This is how it looks from above

and this from under the waterline

All this, under the watchfull eyes of Jacques and Juliette. Always watching me..

Here i somewhat more closeup shot..

 

[zozo]

Hi all,<"Thamnobryum alopecurum">. We do some work on a water course (By Brook) just to the east of Bath, where it is pretty common.

I've also seen <"Climacium dendroides"> recently.

Thamnobryum likes hard water (you get tufa deposits on it).

Next time I'm out I'll retrieve some for you.

cheers Darrel

Almost missed the most generous offer among all the replies, good thing i turn pages back sometimes to read some back again. But that would be realy awsome..

Let me know by then so i can ofcourse reimburse the expenses. Paypal or something or any other way is no problem. Thanks up front for the offer..

Hard water? Hmm that would be a nice experiment for the Goldfish winter tank.. I'm planing to build me something permanent in the bathroom. Some kind a low tech moss epiphyte paludarium. Where i can dump the goldfish for the winter. Still got a few months to think of something. Keeping plants not to fuzzy about hardness, low light and temps, goldfish love some GH.

Their old winter habitat went tropical, so i have to come up with something for them.

 

[zozo]

If you walk around streams keep your eyes open for the "Scapania undulata"

http://www.bbsfieldguide.org.uk/sites/default/files/pdfs/liverworts/Scapania_undulata.pdf

this picture of the andulata is taken in Ireland Wiclow Mountains in a little mountainstream.

 

[zozo]

Here we go again.. I'm becoming a moss adic i guess...

Experimenting with some mosses on rocks emersed.. And since i came to find out that HC is such a nice little plant which likes it emersed best it seems to be a wonderfull versatile little plant.. So i threw som tiny HC plantlets in the project and it seems to love to root with moss.. Actualy never have seen it done before, if anybody has examples from poeplle trying this too, i would love to see pictures of it..

This is a moss i found in the garden in my swamp bucket growing on the base of some iris near the waterline. do not know if it is fully aquatic but definitely sub aquatic because the buckets waterline goes up and down all the time depending the season or my input. This is already growing for a few weeks now and doing great.

This is mini Pelia and Fissidens fontanis and HC a few weeks older and doing great as well..

But with this one i got a small issue.. The pelia is growing the HC also.. but the fissidens doesn't realy like it.. It wont attach and it is even growing some slimy hair algae on it. I might kept it to moist.. No i wonder how could i get that nasty stuff off? If i spray it with H2O2 i definily kill the pelia too.. Does anybody have an idea? What can kill algae in an emersed state and doesn't affect the moss?

 

[parotet]

Fissidens is a slow grower compared to other species... If found very difficult to get rid of hair algae in submerged conditions but when emersed the trick is to push the moss growth to the driest possible conditions. Mosses are more prepared to 'dry' conditions than algae. IME it is the same with BGA

Jordi

 

[zozo]

Emersed fisidens definitely is, submersed i only can say it grrows very good, in my tank it does at least..

The thing is, i'm building me a small 25 liter tank like a paludarium with only 10 liters of water. It's to experiment emersed and submersed with mosses an smaller plants. No heater just lights and a little diy external filter. It will not get any critters in there. I thought of drying the algae off, but it wont kill the spores. now i'm brainstorming about that, how to keep a planted tank with slow growers algae free. If i put it in there i'll expect it to burst out again even after drying.. in a way i don't feel for putting shrimps or fish in 10 liters of water. that's no live, that would be a prison..

 

[parotet]

In my nano vivarium setup (sorry on the phone and cannot link it, see emersed section 'new nano vivarium') I used a DIY 20ish liters tank. Just used AquaSoil kept damp but no shrimps, no submerged part. I learnt to mist just enough and regulate aeration to get rid of filamentous and BGA. As far as I've seen in setups like the one you plan, the submerged part is kept quite shaded by emersed plants growth.
I think you won't need an external filter but just a pump to let the water fall from a spraybar in the top of the hardscape so it will be well oxygenated. The pump can be kept in a plastic container with filter media hidden under the hardscape, quite common in vivarium builds.

Jordi

 

[zozo]

Yes i've seen your tiny vivarium, love it, looks realy stuming. You brought me to the idea with that new epiweb stuff you used in there. And maybe to use it as well.
But i think i'll try something different.. Not going to make a background like that. I'll go for small pieces of wood and sucker cups i guess.. Don't know yet,, i'll see later.

But it already is more than just a plan. Almost half done.. It's a small tank i previously used for breeding daphnia.. It turned out like this.

tank is 40x25x25

the idea is only 8 to 10 cm water level.. Only a small portion of low creeping plants on the gravel and some anubias maybe some bolbitis.. Want room for stones and small pieces of wood partialy emersed for moss experiments. To emersed part will also be planted with creepers for the most and some ferns.. The tree will become something like a hanging garden . With some monte carlo i think and some other epiphytic growth.. On the rocks at the water level also will be covered with mosses..

this is a small bulb orchid, think it will do better in there and finaly get it to bloom i hope.

This is the swampy area slightly going higher to the top behind the tree where the ferns will be.

Behind the tree i created a little stream for the filter outlet where moses are going to be planted on the rocks.

Here it is going to cascade down into the water.

Never tried something like this before.. Only got algae on my mind now for the submersed part. Still can put some nice snails in there..

Don't have much room..

 

[parotet]

Hi zozo

Honestly you don't need Hygrolon for your setup, it is helpful for creating moss walls and for open setups, but not for growing your mosses in a closed tank if you spray them frequently.

I'll go for small pieces of wood and sucker cups i guess..

That sound very good.

some anubias maybe some bolbitis

I also tried them in my nano vivarium... TBH not worth it, they are out of scale unless you have a large vivarium. They also need quite good amount of light and humidity, probably much more than mosses

With some monte carlo i think and some other epiphytic growth

This one is perfect, very easy, lush green and fast growing

Two lessons I learnt with mine:

1. you really need high light to avoid leggy growth in the plants (that are not mosses) you will use. A leggy plant looks awful and breaks all the nano scale effect!
2. as it happens in submerged tanks, we tend to pay too much attention to the hardscape and we use sometimes too much. In a few months your mosses will swallow the stones and branches, and something worst, this will make the layout look flat. In this first phase I would just create a very basic hardscape skeleton and with very differentiated parts/contrast (foreground, mid ground and background), so once it is filled by plants it will look still nice

Looking forward to the evolution!
Jordi

 

[zozo]

Thanks for the tips..

I also think that i dont need that hygrolon or epiweb first i thought to create a background with that stuff but to intens in such a small tank. and besides that to expensive. I found out that little pieces of filter sponsh or real sponsh wathever, works as good, as grow medium to push in hardware cavities or just glewing it to some surface. I like to experiment with cheap alternatives and how mosses grow on to different kinds of hardware..

The anubias i know already, tried some above my tank an inch above the waterline and didn't make it. But i'm putting it submersed aganst a rock in a dimple with some fissidens as company. Its a Nana Petite, so im not wurrying about the size already have them in the tank and the stay rather lilyput size.

Regarding the light it will get about 1300 lumens LED, half 3000K other half 8000K on a dimmer.

I already experienced the invasiveness of christmas moss in my tank.. Pulled 95% out again because it was ruining everything. It's easier to keep in check now. That also learned me to start easy and not pack that little tank with to much to begin with. I'll go easy and see were it goes. Most of the hardscape i like to experiment on will be easily moved or removed if needed. And possibly can sell it for a few pennies if it's worth doing that.

 

[zozo]

It's water change day.. and this i see myself also only once a week.. And it makes WC so much more fun.. I just like to show you a little bit of Ricia Fluitans. Or is it This Ricia Pendulus? I'm confused now.. lol

Above i did put the ricia myself in the cavity of the driftwood..

But this bellow did the Ricia which were floating around by itself.. Actualy i have not much floating Ricia left like it wants to school like fish, It groups and clings to eachother when they meet.. I know it sounds crazy, i bet i am, mama says so.. But what you see is what you get!? Only see very few and small baby ricia float around searching for new frontiers to boldly go where no Ricia has gone before.

 

[zozo]

Here is another test subject showing promising results..

Took a patch of this moss

home from the forest. It grows on sandy forest soil at the base of a tree with soem other mosses. I did put it on my piece of driftwood like this a part emersed and the other part hanging submersed from the wood. And as you can see belowe it soaked itself full with water and getting fat and feeling hard. That photo is about a day or 2 after i did put it there.

A few days later it turnend dark and kinda was withering away, it was shrinking. Not feeling slimey but still hard so it isn't rotting. It got brown tips which i did cut off..
This is today and here you can see there is nothing much left of that patch from above.. But notice the tiny new fresh green growth sticking out..

and lo and behold whats submersed has developed new growth as well.

These shoots are so tiny i had to blow the picture from this to make it noticable among the other plants.

So with this kind of moss just growing in a forest on sand, goes trhough a transition to addapt from a moist forest to a semi and fully submersed invironment. It first soaks, then turrns dark, shrinks and then comes back again in a slightly different form.
(sub)aquatic or not?