Hair Algae - I'm at my wits end!!!

[Nick72]

@Nick72 - No I don't think so. I was talking about plant nutrient availability within plant tissue (competition between mineral ions). It seems quite likely that having magnesium levels this high would result in melting plants if calcium concentrations did not correlate to these levels. I am unsure why such a high level of epsom salt is required at this stage. Can anybody explain this?

I accept there are lots of views. I think the easy place to start is to get magnesium levels back down or they will flood new tissue and make growth fairly difficult.

@rebel Lots of views. Probably a good thing - liked the oxygen idea. I would opt for more oxygen too, but it's not easy juggling all options at once. I think the whole tank is being pushed a bit hard or those poor shrimp and plants would still be alive.

Absolutely agree there is no need for such large quantities of Mg.

Although referring to Mulder's Chart Mg dose not inhibit other salts.

Still OP is getting enough Mg from Aquadur and should not add additional Mg.

Even without Aquadur he is adding about 5 times too much Mg.

Dave, please stop adding Epsom Salts while using Aquadur.

 

[Simon Cole]

@Nick72 - Cheers for your post. I have always wondered why so many EI strategies contain relatively high levels of epsom salts. Generally plant stomata are filled with gases and it would seem that the main thrust getting nutrients into plant tissue is through ectodesmata in the leaves (and stem), or through the root membrane. The ectodesmata are thought to be a negatively charged lining that attracts cations, especially divalent cations like Mg++ and Ca++. Traditional crop observations noted that there was an ideal ratio for root uptake balanced in favour of calcium (e.g. 3:1). This ratio belief is now largely unproven in terrestrial fertilisation. But there is still a heavily dependent relationship, and Michigan State University advise: "Adding Ca to alter the Ca:Mg ratio is not necessary unless Mg equals or exceeds Ca on meq basis". So the ideal situation is something like calcium concentration </= magnesium concentration. As a post-note... I am not entirely sure why calcium nitrate, magnesium nitrate and potassium sulphate are not used in place of epsom salts for relatively soft water planted aquariums.

 

[Simon Cole]

I disagree. How does the OP choose the right one? We can't all be right. Maybe we are all wrong? How doth one know?

I think "we" can all be right. Most of the factors are dependent or interdependent variables. Planted tanks have always been complex systems. Perhaps the place to start is to get those algae eaters thriving and to build up plant mass. Simples

 

[Witcher]

@Nick72 @Simon Cole you may find this quite interesting:
Aquatic toxicity of magnesium sulfate, and the influence of calcium, in very low ionic concentration water

 

[Nick72]

@Nick72 @Simon Cole you may find this quite interesting:
Aquatic toxicity of magnesium sulfate, and the influence of calcium, in very low ionic concentration water

That was interesting, although I only skim read it.

I find scientific reports either induce narcolepsy or a banging headache.

What I took from it was that very low Ca can be dangerous for aquatic life, particularly in the presence of Mg (even at levels as low as 4ppm Mg).

Looks like you need a fairly extreme Ca deficiency or a ratio of 9Mg / 1Ca before the Mg becomes toxic to aquatic life.

Therefore it's important to know you have at least a little Ca in your aquarium.

 

[Siege]

I disagree. How does the OP choose the right one? We can't all be right. Maybe we are all wrong? How doth one know?

I am right of course..........

Havent seen @Pepsi Dave since you guys got your science books out! 😂

Im currently hunting out my grade 2 swimming badge, that’ll impress yer!

 

[Simon Cole]

Great article. Toxicology was measured as lethal concentration (LC) - but not for higher plants per se, and not in terms of growth inhibition. The actual findings were quite amazing. Lesser duckweed lemna aequinoctialis stopped growing at 1 ppm Mg in the absence of calcium. The LC10 (96hr) was 1.9 ppm Mg and LC50 was 4.4 ppm Mg at background calcium levels of >0.8 ppm Ca. At 9:1 Mg to Ca this shot up to 36 ppm Mg and 629 ppm Mg, respectively. I was expecting some correlation but that is amazing. My guess is that larger plants have even more difficulty accumulating and moving enough calcium so I would expect the ratio to be a little bit lower still. But bear in mind we are talking about growth inhibition (even just additional stress) that could have made these plants more susceptible.
@Witcher - Awesome, thank you for sharing!

@Nick72 You're bang on.

@Siege You are definitely right. I think we have gone a bit off piste with nutrients, but worthwhile talking about.

 

[Pepsi Dave]

A few thoughts -


- it is not fert related, you are going down a rabbit hole chasing that.

- water changes - get doing them 70% change and do it 2 or 3 times on the trot. Do it daily if you have time. Get all the waste out.

- you‘ve got no oxygen with no surface movement, invest in some nice glassware that gives you a nice surface ripple.

- co2 diffuser needs a good bleaching to remove the algae. The bubbles are huge. It is blocked and maybe running at too high a psi also.

- flow. Put the outlet and inlet at the front corner going across the tank. Put the co2 at the opposite side. You want the small co2 bubbles being blasted around the tank, it should look like a candle. Your co2 is going straight up. That’s why you are using so much gas.

- you have a lot of all types of algae pointing towards lots of waste and fluctuating co2 Plus low oxygen. Get on top of the co2 and surface movement. Blast everything with a turkey baster attached to your syphon hose to remove all waste. scrub the hardscape with a small wire brush or toothbrush.
A massive maintenance session. You’ll probably do half a dozen water changes minimum.

- you want the tank looking spotless, clean the filter, suction cups,tubing everything. start a reset.


So basically lack of oxygen(surface movement), set up on flow is an issue impacting co2, all combined with lack of maintenance.

It may be too far gone but if you give it a good whack you may just pull it back (You May have to cut the stem plants to the minimum plant and cut of all leave showing BBA). Give it a good go, you’ll learn loads more about your tank than it all going smoothly

Hope that helps!

ps. Temp at 22-23 degrees!

Thanks for the response, lack of oxygen would make sense, I was struggling with surface film for a few weeks until I adjusted the filter outlet to add more surface agitation.

Noted about the water changes, I'm already resigned to hugely increasing frequency until I get on top of the problem.

I've just come back from a weekend visiting family, last dosed tank on Friday, with Saturday being a normal rest day (no excel added though). Came home today to a tank with huge amounts of filamentous/thread algae. Did large water change, large trimming session and tried to remove as much of the algae as possible. I've adjusted filter outlet position again, to try and spread the CO2 bubbles around the tank more.

The CO2 bubbles and them being blown around the tank confuses me somewhat though because my drop checker still reacts to the CO2 being present, when I change the reagent fluid for example. Would this not indicate that CO2 is being absorbed by the water column sufficiently?

Will update as and when I can do, but I really appreciate the help so far! Thank you!

 

[Pepsi Dave]

why So much ei?

Don’t stop dosing it just seems a lot, is this because the recipe is a weak solution.?

For example I’d dose TNC Complete or the Aquascaper ferts at 2.5ml a day on your tank.

I think when I first started with EI I used the standard recipe thats supplied with the Starter Kit from APF. I'm sure this recipe was for a 50ml dose every day.
The bottles that I have, have 25ml reservoirs. I adjusted the recipe to suit 25ml dosing instead of 50ml dosing, and adjusted quantities to suit tank size etc. I suspect the TNC Complete you use may be much more concentrated?

 

[Pepsi Dave]

Hi @Pepsi Dave

I don't think you have mentioned this above but how often are you cleaning the filtration media?

JPC

To be honest, I've cleaned it once since setup, and once just before set up.

I usually clean my media (in tank water) every couple of months or so, or as and when required if I've disturbed substrate and thrown a load of detritus into the water column.

My ceramics are usually pretty clean to be fair, it's normally my floss and sponge that are really heavily soiled.

 

[Pepsi Dave]

What is fascinating here is the range of differing opinions! I feel sorry for the OP having to choose the right one.

I have had this thought myself. I'm trying to use the knowledge that I already have (or THINK I have haha) and adapt the advice being given!

It will all help me learn, and that's the important part of this lesson in Algae!

Don't get me wrong, I've had algae before, and usually been able to address it, but this time I'm really struggling!

 

[Pepsi Dave]

Absolutely agree there is no need for such large quantities of Mg.

Although referring to Mulder's Chart Mg dose not inhibit other salts.

Still OP is getting enough Mg from Aquadur and should not add additional Mg.

Even without Aquadur he is adding about 5 times too much Mg.

Dave, please stop adding Epsom Salts while using Aquadur.

This is interesting, and I think the most radical thing I've read in terms of what I'm already doing.

I add so much magnesium simply because that's what the EI recipe caluclator tells me to put in.
However, after finding my Aquadur instruction booklet tonight, I can see that I'm already adding in plenty of magnesium with the Aquadur.

Whilst I don't know the quants I'm adding, I can see that the Aquadur mixture is 45% Calcium, 32% Sodium, 13% Potassium and 10% Magnesium.

This is going to be really rudimentary, but I add approx 1/2 a measuring spoon of Aquadur per bucket that I use to re-fill my tank. It takes approx 3 buckets to fill it from empty.

With the above in mind, I presume I can vastly reduce the amount of Epsom salts I'm adding to my ferts. Also, can you point out how or why you've arrived at me adding about 5 times too much? I'm not challenging you, I'm just trying to understand why the amounts I'm adding are wildly over and above what you're saying they should be.

 

[Pepsi Dave]

Thanks for all your help so far guys, I'm hugely appreciative of the response so far, and I'm sure with all your help I'll eventually get there!

Just to update a touch, I've just been away visiting family for the weekend. After a couple of days away my tank was completely overrun with algae upon return. This time, I've taken a few pics before WC and algae removal, if it helps further clarify the problem.

Another interesting observation tonight, is that a couple of leaves appeared to have small pin holes in them. Anubias Nana Petit and S. Repens were the only plants that seemed to be affected with this.

For full disclosure, I went away on Friday and dosed as normal before I left.
Saturday is my EI "rest day" but I would normally dose excel, which I didn't do yesterday.
Came back today, at about 8pm, ie after CO2 and Lights came on, so no dosing today prior to that.

 

[Nick72]

This is interesting, and I think the most radical thing I've read in terms of what I'm already doing.

I add so much magnesium simply because that's what the EI recipe caluclator tells me to put in.
However, after finding my Aquadur instruction booklet tonight, I can see that I'm already adding in plenty of magnesium with the Aquadur.

Whilst I don't know the quants I'm adding, I can see that the Aquadur mixture is 45% Calcium, 32% Sodium, 13% Potassium and 10% Magnesium.

This is going to be really rudimentary, but I add approx 1/2 a measuring spoon of Aquadur per bucket that I use to re-fill my tank. It takes approx 3 buckets to fill it from empty.

With the above in mind, I presume I can vastly reduce the amount of Epsom salts I'm adding to my ferts. Also, can you point out how or why you've arrived at me adding about 5 times too much? I'm not challenging you, I'm just trying to understand why the amounts I'm adding are wildly over and above what you're saying they should be.

Hi Dave,

I might not fully understand the doses you are using.

You said :

"The below is added to 500ml Water. I dose the below on Sunday (WC Day 1), Tuesday, and Thursday.
KNO3 - 1.5 Tsp
KH2PO4 - 0.25 Tsp
K2SO4 - 1 Tsp
MGSO4 - 5Tsp"

So that's 15 tsp per week.

For EI dosing you need to add 15 ppm Mg / week. In your 37 liter tank that's 2.5 tsp per week.

So 15 tsp per week is actually 6 times what is needed.

In any case you don't need to add any Mg as you are already dosing Aquadur.