Has anyone ever seen a female Scarlet Badis?

[rdk1402]

By the way, I used to have Dario dario's in the past. Apart from coloration and size, one behavioral difference I think I've noticed between the species is the following:

At least the Dario dario's I kept loved spending prolonged time amongst floating plants. Most likely for sake of ambushing certain critters. Dario tigris too are sit and wait predators, but I never find them amongst floaters. Hiding / ambushing from cave-like structures / dense bushes.

 

[brhau]

Thank you both.

Did you receive your Dario's, Ben?

Unfortunately, the lone female I planned to pick up today jumped out of its breeder's tank yesterday. He told me that he recently cleared out the tank (5 pairs in the 10 gallon) in order to access the fish more easily. My guess is that, in the absence of plants and structure, the female was chased by a male (or males) and tried to escape at the top. That leaves me in a bit of a quandary, as I've now adjusted 3 blackwater tanks for Dario conditions and have added some inverts as well.

I've contacted a few sellers who told me that their exporters won't send females, and that their fish are large enough to be sexable as likely all male. One shop says they have smaller fish that are impossible to sex, and have indeed received females in the past that their customers have bred. So one option I'm mulling is to buy 6 of those and hope that one is female. It's a risk, obviously, since the genders are likely skewed enough to greatly reduce the probability that this is the case. I think that sexing will be an exercise of trial and error. My available tank sizes are 5g (41 cm), 15g (61 cm), and 20 long (76 cm). I have a 2.5g (30 cm) as well, but that seems too small to be of use. The 20 long would be the most difficult tank to extract fish from, since it has one large piece of spiderwood that dominates much of the volume of the tank. An older photo below (It's currently more grown in and "mulmy"). The other two tanks are configurable. My thoughts:

1. I could put all 6 in the 5 gallon. I assume in this scenario there would be a single dominant male, and the remaining fish would be ambiguous. I could successively remove each dominant male to the larger tanks, which would yield an acceptable final state: 1 in the 5, 2 in the 15, 3 in the 20. However, there would be an uncomfortable regime where there are 2 or 3 males in the 5 gallon.
2. I could put all 6 in the 15 gallon, allow some males to establish territories, and look for fish who aren't territorial AND visit the territories. However, if all 6 are male, this could become problematic rather quickly.
3. I could put then all in the 20, but I'd be hesitant to do so, as I'd have the least control over what happens in that scenario.

-Ben

 

[louis_last]

Hey Ben,

As I mentioned on a different forum 😉 I don't conduct experiments with Dario tigris. They just happen to sit on top of the food chain in most of my tanks. I keep a minimal amount of fish (mostly Dario) per tank in order to preserve populations of crustaceans and nematodes in the same tank.

I believe the observation given by Louis could very well be applicable to Dario tigris.

I once had a scape (in a 1 meter tank) that had a very clear boundary in the middle, along with two males and one female. The males each owned one of the sides of the tank, perhaps due to the clear boundary in the middle, and disputes were very, very frequent. Spawning took place in this setup. But I hated staring at the tank because of the disputes.

So I changed the scape to an island, see picture below, and added a third male (yes, for comparison, I should not have done that). The four oftentimes group together; see picture below. I never notice any disputes ...and thus far, never noticed any breeding either.

The other remark by Louis regarding Dario dario is one that I have read before about this fish; they aggregate in groups in the wild. Perhaps the same is true for tigris. Aggregate under conditions a,b,c, settle territories under conditions, x,b,z, etc. If I'd live a thousand years, I would probably have visited Myanmar by now and observe tigris in the wild.

Most of my tanks only have a solitary male. I seriously wonder if this is the right thing to do from the fish's perspective.

View attachment 199582

View attachment 199583

For breeding, I currently keep 1 male and 1 female in a 60cm tank.

Louis talked about a visible spot on the female. I notice the same thing on the dorsal side. Look at the white mark. It is not something permanent.

View attachment 199585

That's really fascinating that you've noticed the same thing with females being marked after pairing in D. tigris and an amazing tank too!

 

[rdk1402]

1. I could put all 6 in the 5 gallon. I assume in this scenario there would be a single dominant male, and the remaining fish would be ambiguous. I could successively remove each dominant male to the larger tanks, which would yield an acceptable final state: 1 in the 5, 2 in the 15, 3 in the 20. However, there would be an uncomfortable regime where there are 2 or 3 males in the 5 gallon.

I know this is typical of Dario dario; submissive males looking (at least to humans) like females. I'm not sure if this pertains to tigris. As discussed on the other forum; temperature might play a big role also. Currently it's winter.
In the tank that has 1 male, 1 female, the male has slightly aroused colors, and male and female are living very peacefully together. ("waiting for spring to kick in"?). See image below.
In the 5 gallon highly planted tank that has 2 males, both colors are very dull. Males living peacefully together.

Again, trying to figure all of this out does not have my priority. I just take care of the two females I have. Jumping out (extremely unusual behaviour in my opinion for tigris) would be a small nightmare.

Here's an image from a few minutes ago: male and female (in the right):

1. I could put then all in the 20, but I'd be hesitant to do so, as I'd have the least control over what happens in that scenario.

I think I'd split the 6 up in two groups, release them in the 15 and 20, and assume you'll not end up with 3 females in one group 🙂. Around 22 C / 71.5 F is where breeding behavior occurs.

Also: I don't think they are eager to predate on offspring. I don't separate the female after spawning, etc., I strongly believe there's is no brood care, but no predation either.

 

[brhau]

Also: I don't think they are eager to predate on offspring. I don't separate the female after spawning, etc., I strongly believe there's is no brood care, but no predation either.

My instinct is to separate a female, not out of fear of predation, but rather so she doesn’t overbreed or be pestered to death my an amorous male. Though I could also, as you’ve suggested, control this with temperature as well.

Cheers

 

[castle]

I’d be interested in a few @louis_last

could collect some in a couple of weeks?

 

[brhau]

By the way, I used to have Dario dario's in the past. Apart from coloration and size, one behavioral difference I think I've noticed between the species is the following:

At least the Dario dario's I kept loved spending prolonged time amongst floating plants. Most likely for sake of ambushing certain critters. Dario tigris too are sit and wait predators, but I never find them amongst floaters. Hiding / ambushing from cave-like structures / dense bushes.

I've had the 6 juvenile D. tigris for just a couple days now. A few of them do seem to like hanging out amongst the roots. I have mostly Salvinia natans at the top, and because the water has been so nutrient poor, the roots are quite long and bushy. Not sure if they'll continue this behavior, but it was notable given your observations.

 

[rdk1402]

I've had the 6 juvenile D. tigris for just a couple days now. A few of them do seem to like hanging out amongst the roots. I have mostly Salvinia natans at the top, and because the water has been so nutrient poor, the roots are quite long and bushy. Not sure if they'll continue this behavior, but it was notable given your observations.

The juveniles, yes. See few posts back: Has anyone ever seen a female Scarlet Badis?
The adults seem to prefer the benthic zone - but keep me posted in the future if this is not the case in your tanks.

 

[louis_last]

The juveniles, yes. See few posts back: Has anyone ever seen a female Scarlet Badis?
The adults seem to prefer the benthic zone - but keep me posted in the future if this is not the case in your tanks.

This has also been my experience with scarlet badis. Fry and juveniles up to a certain size like to hide in thick moss regardless of depth, and even very close to the surface, but once mature they tend to stay low around the substrate. Adult males seem to love nothing more than caves created by wood at substrate level however I've found that the females will often lead them into the roots of floating plants to actually mate - contradicting something I had read, that the males will entice females into their cave/territory to mate.

 

[rdk1402]

This has also been my experience with scarlet badis. Fry and juveniles up to a certain size like to hide in thick moss regardless of depth, and even very close to the surface, but once mature they tend to stay low around the substrate. Adult males seem to love nothing more than caves created by wood at substrate level however I've found that the females will often lead them into the roots of floating plants to actually mate - contradicting something I had read, that the males will entice females into their cave/territory to mate.

In tigris, I actually do witness males enticing females into their headquarters. Here's a clip of it, including the mating at 28 seconds.



For months now, the male and female in this video are living side by side.... pretty much every minute of the day.
Apologies for the looks of the plants 😉. Did major trimming in fall and temperature has dropped to an average 18 degrees C since then.

 

[louis_last]

Not the best picture but check out the pectoral fins on this little guy! They're never usually this long and he's not even fully mature yet, I would expect him to colour up more as he grows and has the opportunity to establish his own territory.

 

[Conort2]

It’s a shame females aren’t more readily available as these are the perfect alternative to dwarf cichlids if you have a small tank. Some lovely fish in this thread.

 

[brhau]

If we're sharing eye candy, here are my two largest juvenile D. tigris. I believe females are easier to come by, or at least possible.

 

[louis_last]

If we're sharing eye candy, here are my two largest juvenile D. tigris. I believe females are easier to come by, or at least possible.

Eventually I really must branch out into keeping these beauties and I'd really like to get D. hysignon again too. I've also heard that females of D.tigris are easier to come by and several shops when I was looking for female dario told me they'd never seen one but that they could supply pairs of tigris.
I would really, really like to get to the bottom of exactly what the reason for this is. I saw someone on another forum speculating that male dario may harass the females to death in transit or shortly after capture and, as I said, my own observations somewhat bear this out as plausible because I've found excessive persistance in mating attempts stressing the females to be a more obvious potential problem than aggression between males. I struggle to believe this is the real reason for the lack of female dario in the trade though. It may be a contributing factor but there's got to be something else to it.

Have you ever noticed harassment between the males and females of tigris?

 

[brhau]

Eventually I really must branch out into keeping these beauties and I'd really like to get D. hysignon again too. I've also heard that females of D.tigris are easier to come by and several shops when I was looking for female dario told me they'd never seen one but that they could supply pairs of tigris.

Likewise, I'd also like to keep D. Dario, but at the moment females are nearly impossible to come by on this continent. I see breeders posting pictures of females on the Facebook group, so perhaps one day the tank raised ones will become common enough to open up the market.

I would really, really like to get to the bottom of exactly what the reason for this is. I saw someone on another forum speculating that male dario may harass the females to death in transit

I'm skeptical of this theory, because I don't think shipping conditions are conducive for breeding. I don't know what all the factors are, but my assumption is that they avoid selling females out of fear that breeding pairs may eventually hurt the market for export.

Have you ever noticed harassment between the males and females of tigris?

@rdk1402 might be a better one to ask. These are my first Darios, and I've only had them for a week. Since they're juveniles, it's not possible to sex them, aside from the dominant male(s). I'm hopeful, but not certain that I have a female out of the 6. I also don't know their body language very well, as I'm more accustomed to South American dwarfs. I do see some sparring, chasing, and display, but I can't tell yet whether it's combat or courting.

 

[louis_last]

For anyone interested I did a proper inventory of a full batch of fry. From a single mature pair with constant access to various live food at a temperature of 23c in very soft slightly acidic water, 73 fry have matured to a point where their sex can be determined with a high degree of certainty. Of these 29 were male and the rest female. I think the very large number of fry probably suggests that these were the result of at least two consecutive matings however they are all of opproximately the same size and level of maturity suggesting that any subsequent egg laying after the first pairing occured within a very short period of time.
I have raised all fry from several broods in the same tanks as their parents and believe that when sufficient food is provided the adults do not tend to prey on their own young at any stage of development. Interesting that the gender ratio seems to lean female but it's quite a small sample size to draw any conclusions from.
I haven't seen any further fry appear in tanks where both adults and their young are present which may suggest either that the adults stop breeding in the presence of significant numbers of their own offspring even when well fed or that, unlike the adults, juveniles will happily feed on much smaller fry.

 

[rdk1402]

The ones above live together like two lovebirds; the female follows the male like a shadow most of the times. The other adult female I have lives in a small group, peacefully.
Temperature is 17/19C right now.

Also, I cannot distinguish male from female on most occasions.

 

[castle]

Note they are jumper and males will chase other males out of the tank.

Evidence, many D. tigris have ended up on my floor before I put them in a tank with cover.

 

[louis_last]

The ones above live together like two lovebirds; the female follows the male like a shadow most of the times. The other adult female I have lives in a small group, peacefully.
Temperature is 17/19C right now.

Also, I cannot distinguish male from female on most occasions.

Those temperatures are at the lower end of the range I've seen proposed for them right? Do you adjust it to mimic natural seasonal changes or have you found some advantage to keeping them on the cooler end of things?
Do you notice their behaviour change much after mating? In my experience pairs of D. dario kept alone will often spend time hunting together very closely like you describe but after mating the males will guard eggs quite doggedly and don't even tolerate the female coming near them. I've seen no sign of any further parental care after hatching.

 

[rdk1402]

I believe most temperatures communicated on the internet are breeding temperatures. This holds for al lot of fish species, not just Dario.

I assume breeding is associated with welfare. Hence, if you keep fish at those temperatures, it serves their wellbeing.
But breeding is not an indication of welfare for many species. We keep most fish at too high and too constant temperatures. There are a few studies that support this.

So yes, I am mimicking their natural environment to a certain degree. I see different behaviours in different seasons. How cool is that.

And yes, the male doesn't tolerate the female once breeding occurs. I've never seen them prey on their offspring. I've never seen broodcare either.