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Heavy planting equals no cycle?

Mark.A

Member
Joined
22 Jul 2009
Messages
58
Location
Northumberland, UK.
I have had a few people tell me that you don't need to cycle a planted tank if you plant heavily. I have a question about this - if I plant heavily should I be able to add all my fish at once? ...and they won't suffer any ammonia / nitrite poisoning?
 
The term cycling is a bit strange and invites to have misconceptions about it. It would be easier if this generally accepted term would be changed into "Established" or "Matured"

Ammonia and Nitrite have to come from somewhere!? In most cases, it is in the substrate either pre fertilized or high in organics and leaches back into the water column. Then it needs to be waited out or flushed out with the help of regular extra water changes.

If you use an inert substrate, then what's not put in can't come out. :)

We need a healthy bacteria population in the substrate to convert Ammonia and Nitrite into Nitrate... This takes several weeks to develop. The longer you wait for the better. All tho 6 weeks is a generally accepted period, even tho we can't really prove it. Anyway...

Plants indeed do take up Ammonia and likely Nitrite directly as a food source... But consider it doesn't do this from the get-go. 99% of the available aquarium plants are in fact Bog plants able to live submerged and for convenience, a nursery grows these plants emerged, as a Bog plant. The submerged form of the plant is morphologically completely different, then if the emerged form suddenly is put underwater it can not sufficiently utilize this new atmosphere. It needs to change its morphology, simply grow it. Old Bog form will die, new Aquatic form needs to grow. This process is called transitioning phase and takes time. Actually in this transition old emerged growth dies faster than new aquatic growth will appear. In this period, with old-growth dying melting and rotting, will create extra bioload in the water column and can cause Ammonia or Nitrite spikes.

Thus even with an inert substrate, initially, as long as the plants are not established there still is ammonia source present. And the plants and its new growth are yet not mature enough to take it up.

Adding fish in this period, guess what you need? Food and what do fish do after consuming this, they poop. Food that is not eaten sinks to the bottom and rots, poop already containing Ammonia also sinks to the bottom and does the same. Again 2 Ammonia sources yet not accounted for. :( :)

Does this answer the question?

IMHO, don't wait for 6 weeks, but care and wait for the plants to establish and mature and show sufficient healthy new aquatic growth... Does it have this within 6 weeks, then you are a hell of an aquarist if it doesn't then wait till it has?

The exception to the rule or 2nd option is, you could use only true aquatic plants, but as said if you can get any of the 1% available out there. :)
 
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Thanks for the reply. I understand the nitrification process and that plants take up ammonia, it’s just that I’ve never not cycled a tank before adding fish. This relying on the plants bit is what I’m not clear on and whether they would support a full fish load, like fishless cycling does.
 
Not cycling an aquarium and stocking it prematurely is simply risking lives... They might be lucky or not...

Even if you could get your hands on a bunch of already transitioned plants from a fellow aquarist. Plants can suffer a transplant shock that it needs to recover from.

Simply said, if a plant is pulled from the pot out of its trusted environment, roots damaged etc. And put into new different parameters it kinda goes asleep for a while to slowly recover. It might never do and die...

If you want to rely on the plants then first make sure they are healthy and growing... We can not take it for granted they just are from day 1. :)
 
The tank will still need to cycle. Planting heavily allows the system to be cycled without using ammonia. Bacteria on plant roots leaves, and stems will inoculate the system with the right bacteria. Using ammonia doesn't necessarily encourage the right bacteria https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/need-help-with-new-tank.58530/page-3#post-574219 and https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/bedside-aquarium.56709/page-4

It's never a good idea to add all the critters in one go either way. Always add them gradually so that the system has time to adjust.
 
Also to build on what the guys above have said, the plant impact is kind of commensurate with the livestock, e.g 1 guppy won't have as much impact as an Oscar, so there's really a bit of measure needed to gauge what impact plants will have in the enclosed system, if that makes sense
 
Hi all,
if I plant heavily should I be able to add all my fish at once?
This relying on the plants bit is what I’m not clear on and whether they would support a full fish load, like fishless cycling does.
It's never a good idea to add all the critters in one go either way. Always add them gradually so that the system has time to adjust.
I normally add the fish over time. It is belt and braces really. If I do need to add more fish than I would like in one hit, I make sure that I have a lot of floating plants and a large gas exchange surface..

cheers Darrel
 
Hi all, I normally add the fish over time. It is belt and braces really. If I do need to add more fish than I would like in one hit, I make sure that I have a lot of floating plants and a large gas exchange surface..

cheers Darrel
I’m used to adding them all at once as I normally do a fishless cycle. Another reason for wanting to add them all at once is because I have to order them online. I don’t have transport to get to an LFS. With the expensive delivery costs when ordering livestock online it makes economic sense to order all the fish at once. Splitting them into smaller orders would triple or even quadruple the cost of getting the fish.
 
Some planted tanks use substrate that initially leaches ammonia - so they do cycle that way rather than skip it all together. Do you have other tanks? If so you can use filter media from another tank. Plants that have leaves at or above the surface are more efficient ammonia removers. Water changes are another factor - do more and your tank can cope with a bigger stock sooner. Likewise it depends what your stock is, if you have baby fish that are growing out or are intend to be lightly stocked at the end then it's more likely to work.
 
I’m using black sand with root fertiliser added. I don’t have any other fish tanks. Water changes are not a problem. I will be doing 50% weekly anyway to reset the nutrients in the water but more is no problem.

The tank is 32.5 gallon. It’s 32.5” x 15.75” x 15.35”.

These are the plants I plan to get from the start:

Anubias coffeefolia
Anubias nana petite
Anubias barteri var. nana 'Pinto'
Nymphaea rubra
Cryptocoryne legroi
Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Green Gecko'
Ludwigia sp. Mini super red
Ludwigia arcuata
Java fern petite
Hygrophila polysperma rosanervig
Crinum Calamistratum
Spiky moss
Helanthium tenellum
Fissidens fontanus
Bucephalandra biblis
Bucephalandra caterina
Bucephalandra sekadau

These are the fish I plan to get:

2 German Blue Rams
30 Harlequin rasbora
1 Male Dwarf Gourami
6 Corydoras sterbai

Along with:

5 Nerite Snail
5 Amano Shrimp

I’m beginning to think it may be better to just get the plants first, leave it for 4 to 6 weeks and then add the fish gradually and just take the hit on the extra delivery costs.
 
I’m using black sand with root fertiliser added. I don’t have any other fish tanks. Water changes are not a problem. I will be doing 50% weekly anyway to reset the nutrients in the water but more is no problem.

The tank is 32.5 gallon. It’s 32.5” x 15.75” x 15.35”.

These are the plants I plan to get from the start:

Anubias coffeefolia
Anubias nana petite
Anubias barteri var. nana 'Pinto'
Nymphaea rubra
Cryptocoryne legroi
Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Green Gecko'
Ludwigia sp. Mini super red
Ludwigia arcuata
Java fern petite
Hygrophila polysperma rosanervig
Crinum Calamistratum
Spiky moss
Helanthium tenellum
Fissidens fontanus
Bucephalandra biblis
Bucephalandra caterina
Bucephalandra sekadau

These are the fish I plan to get:

2 German Blue Rams
30 Harlequin rasbora
1 Male Dwarf Gourami
6 Corydoras sterbai

Along with:

5 Nerite Snail
5 Amano Shrimp

I’m beginning to think it may be better to just get the plants first, leave it for 4 to 6 weeks and then add the fish gradually and just take the hit on the extra delivery costs.

If you do have to add fish all in one go, remember you can do water changes to account for the sudden bioload impact, then gradually lessen the water changes as the system establishes, until you're at a maintenance level and frequency.

As long as you're matching parameters closely like temp, dechlorinating the water, you can pretty much water change with no Ill effects on the fish, it's another weapon in the arsenal
 
The exception to the rule or 2nd option

Or third option is to cycle (Established" or "Matured) your filter media before you fill/add your plants.

I did this with my filter and the 'household green waste bin' fill bin with water attach filter and run for about six weeks and add a supply of waste for it to process, few fish flakes occasionally and a glass or urine a day did the trick for me, added inmates (few at a time at first) within a week, but had done a 12 week DSM also which is another option also ;)
 
I’m using black sand with root fertiliser added. I don’t have any other fish tanks. Water changes are not a problem. I will be doing 50% weekly anyway to reset the nutrients in the water but more is no problem.

The tank is 32.5 gallon. It’s 32.5” x 15.75” x 15.35”.

These are the plants I plan to get from the start:

Anubias coffeefolia
Anubias nana petite
Anubias barteri var. nana 'Pinto'
Nymphaea rubra
Cryptocoryne legroi
Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Green Gecko'
Ludwigia sp. Mini super red
Ludwigia arcuata
Java fern petite
Hygrophila polysperma rosanervig
Crinum Calamistratum
Spiky moss
Helanthium tenellum
Fissidens fontanus
Bucephalandra biblis
Bucephalandra caterina
Bucephalandra sekadau

These are the fish I plan to get:

2 German Blue Rams
30 Harlequin rasbora
1 Male Dwarf Gourami
6 Corydoras sterbai

Along with:

5 Nerite Snail
5 Amano Shrimp

I’m beginning to think it may be better to just get the plants first, leave it for 4 to 6 weeks and then add the fish gradually and just take the hit on the extra delivery costs.

I would:
1) set up the tank with lots of plants, ideally with a decent amount of stem plants.
2) wait a week then order the snails and shrimp, they will arrive by the end of week 2 or so.
3) wait another week and order the half the rasboras
4) wait 2 weeks and order the rest.

I wouldn't add that many inhabitants at once in general, especially if any of the snails die it could wipe out your tank. Also adding any established bio media would be a life saver.
 
Neither am I! :lol: Not sure what that has to do with being economical though?

Well, the term Eco goes a long way nowadays... But from an old fashion standpoint of view, Economics is the social science that studies the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services.

Now the question, does the aquarium serve us or do we serve the aquarium?

Is the thin red line in between an opinion?
 
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Well, the term Eco goes a long way nowadays... But from an old fashion standpoint of view, Economics is the social science that studies the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services.

Now the question, does the aquarium serve us or do we serve the aquarium?

Is the thin red line in between an opinion?
Guess I’m just not that old fashioned. Economical to me is trying to do something the least wasteful way.

In answer to your question - both. It’s a symbiotic relationship.
 
Which shops are you ordering plants and fish from - both would be able to send you some “cycled” filter media if so inclined, so I’d ask :)
Even a small amount of “starter culture” is useful

From your previous thread where you discuss the Fluval Flex 123
though it is the last one and is being used on display
- was the tank just on display out of the box, or actually running as a fish/plants display tank?

Phosphate thread from Tuesday indicate tank is already running - I’m assuming it’s scaped with substrate, stone and wood in place

I’m going to be using inert black aquarium sand for the substrate, also due for delivery this week. I will be seeding the substrate with plant fertiliser and will top it up with root tabs when needed. I will also be dosing TNC Complete. The fertiliser is also due for delivery this week as is the doser that I will be using.


A couple of considerations with this Flex
- the actual footprint for fish is significantly smaller than the actual tank dimensions (unless you’ve removed the filter section and are using an external filter?)
- lighting is very low on this particular Flex (Fluval makes the oddest choices - while significantly reducing the lighting on this Flex, they continue to promote it with box photos of thriving plants that are unlikely to grow (in this manner) with the stock lighting :confused:)

Fluval Flex profile page
https://fluvalaquatics.com/us/flex-32/

Given this I’ve changed my mind from what I initially intended to write, I suggest focusing on plant growth, then adding fish once plants are established and actively growing

I think you can easily make the fish numbers work, even adding all fish in one go - just begin with smaller juvenile fish and do daily 25% - 50% water changes the first week, then alternate day etc
(I use Seachem Ammonia Alert if unsure about the bioload capacity)

I would add at least 10-12 shrimp, they really are MUCH happier in a group
(I’m confused how the minimum 10-12 shrimp “requirement” has vanished from shrimpkeeping - it’s no different than selling/buying 3 tetras etc

Anubias coffeefolia
Anubias nana petite
Anubias barteri var. nana 'Pinto'
Nymphaea rubra
Cryptocoryne legroi
Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Green Gecko'
Ludwigia sp. Mini super red
Ludwigia arcuata
Java fern petite
Hygrophila polysperma rosanervig
Crinum Calamistratum
Spiky moss
Helanthium tenellum
Fissidens fontanus
Bucephalandra biblis
Bucephalandra caterina
Bucephalandra sekadau

I suggest adding L sessiliflora as a fast growing (very tolerant indicator) plant - you can leave this in its pot if you don't want to incorporate into your scape - if you observe growth with long internodes or poor growth, I’d increase the stock lighting


The Blue Rams and Dwarf Gourami are the only “difficult” fish, intensive breeding has created fish stock that is much more sensitive than wild caught versions, and both have significant instance of (relatively species specific) iridovirus


As you won’t see the fish beforehand, and there may be some unexpected shipping stress, I suggest having some basic medications on hand
eSHa Exit (external parasites) - if possible find a formalin/malachite green treatment
eSHa 2000 (bacterial infections, mostly effective for external bacterial challenge)
eSHa ndx (internal parasites including some worms)
 
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