Help needed for new dosing routine

[Jose]

Oh boy. This is a classic case of EI fear.

1) You shouldnt be worrying about toxicity at all unless you have very delicate shrimp. In this case you you should be more worried about co2 than ferts. In an EI dosed tank your ferts levels wont climb over your weekly dosex2. Simple maths here. Do an example on a paper with a simple number, say 2. If youre doing a wc once every two weeks then your levels will be 2x that total ammount max. This is true if youre doing a 50% wc.

2) If you want to do 1 wc every two weeks then you can do many things. In the end you dont want plants to suffer from low nutrients. And as Ian mentioned you dont want organics from plants+fish+whatever to accumulate causing algae. So do whatever combination you want to get to this. Main thing you can do is lower your light->which lowers plants metabolism->which makes them uptake less nutrients->which makes them polute the water less.

Simply put. You want less hassle, then have low light. You might get away which your light atm and less wcs.

 

[fablau]

Voodoo you're basically doing a very large increase of PPM of PO4 at the beginning of the week so greater PPM of PO4 the greater reaction between your micros or so the theory goes. The fact you are having problems with your tank is telling you something is wrong. Could be CO2, could be flow, could be light could be ferts (since you're not following the gospel written by Barr). To eliminate nutrients out of the equation it's always the recommendation to fall back to "correct" method with 60-50% water changes. Are you saying it's expensive filling the tank with RO water? Why don't you just use tap water?

Might as well dry dose for a tank that size 75g is roughly 3x20g in teaspoons (I've rounded as I can't be bothered with 3/16ths
day 1 WC + 1/2 KNO3 + 1/4 KH2PO4 + 1.1/2 MgSO4
day 2 1/4 Trace
day 3 WC + 1/2 KNO3 + 1/4 KH2PO4 + 1.1/2 MgSO4
day 4 1/4 Trace
day 5 WC + 1/2 KNO3 + 1/4 KH2PO4 + 1.1/2 MgSO4
day 6 Rest
day 7 Rest

Thank you, but I am using tap water and I am trying to find a fert routine that allows me to perform WC every 2 weeks. Once a week is something I can't handle right now (lack of time!)

The amount of Po4 that I "dump" once a week is exactly what you are suggesting to dump every other day: 1/4 tsp. So, as you can see, I am dosing less then you are suggesting, therefore why should I have more problems than the routine you are suggesting?

 

[ian_m]

1. If you wish to only change water once a fortnight, fine, just run lights at 1/2 power buy say putting foil rings around the lights covering half up an run for say starting at only 4 hours. This will slow the tank down therefore generating less plant waste and organics and hopefully along with lower light intensity and lighting period will not cause issues (algae is main one).

2. You cannot just do a weekly ferts dump, as explained it doesn't work like that, you will only have problems, usually plant issues and resulting algae. If you just dump a weekly dump of ferts apart from the sudden change in water conditions for fish (and plants) the plants may scoff the lot (as well as PO4 reacting with your micro and other chemicals) and you will suffer plant deficiencies at the end of the week. It has been proven many times, and this is where the EI dosing scheme comes from you must dose for a constant daily level every day (or alternate).

3. All people who "invent their own dosing scheme" (it is NOT EI as EI is daily alternate macro/micro dosing) always end up with plant and algae issues. EI was derived to make it easy, no test kits required, never insufficient ferts but does require constant daily ferts levels and frequent water changes.

4. Try it...

 

[Jose]

http://www.barrreport.com/forum/bar...i-can-get-you-there-with-a-small-modification

Read very thoroughly and carefully.

 

[EnderUK]

Good advice Ian, you know I don't completely agree to your third statement but if someone is having problems then it's best to fall back to a schedule that works.

Jose I linked that on my first post

 

[Jose]

Jose I linked that on my first post

Got me there!. Well that makes it a must read then.

 

[fablau]

1. If you wish to only change water once a fortnight, fine, just run lights at 1/2 power buy say putting foil rings around the lights covering half up an run for say starting at only 4 hours. This will slow the tank down therefore generating less plant waste and organics and hopefully along with lower light intensity and lighting period will not cause issues (algae is main one).

2. You cannot just do a weekly ferts dump, as explained it doesn't work like that, you will only have problems, usually plant issues and resulting algae. If you just dump a weekly dump of ferts apart from the sudden change in water conditions for fish (and plants) the plants may scoff the lot (as well as PO4 reacting with your micro and other chemicals) and you will suffer plant deficiencies at the end of the week. It has been proven many times, and this is where the EI dosing scheme comes from you must dose for a constant daily level every day (or alternate).

3. All people who "invent their own dosing scheme" (it is NOT EI as EI is daily alternate macro/micro dosing) always end up with plant and algae issues. EI was derived to make it easy, no test kits required, never insufficient ferts but does require constant daily ferts levels and frequent water changes.

4. Try it...

I have dosed alternating macros and micros for the past year, and the journey hasn't been without problems. Some plants stopped growing completely (ie. Java moss) or slowed down growth more than before (Marsilea Minuta), but in the overall it has worked well for all other plants as you can see from my previously posted pictures above. So, I am not new to EI and I have read a lot about it, pretty much everywhere (find all my posts on the Barr report...)

But I am beginning to think I am a little dumb here because I keep not understanding what may be the problem of dosing this way if the contents of P and N is available to plants anyway during the whole week... Unless you are suggesting that "every time" I dose micros, P gets "neutralized" in some way.... But if so, why I can still measure it, pretty high, at the end of the week? Don't get me wrong folks, I can get back to "regular" EI dosing, alternating macros and micros, that wouldn't be a problem, I am kinda experimenting here, and and this point I have to understand where is exactly the problem if at the end of the week I have dosed the same exact amount, no matter if I put 1/3 of the dose every other day, or a whole of a dose at the beginning of the week only (please note: my "whole" dose is just 1/3 of EI Classic dose for my tank size, but that is sufficient for the entire week due to my WC schedule and plants requirements.)

Please, help me to understand because I am not understanding.

 

[fablau]

http://www.barrreport.com/forum/bar...i-can-get-you-there-with-a-small-modification

Read very thoroughly and carefully.

Thank you Jose, I know that post very well, read probably a hundred times, and I have already tried it... As I said before, I am just experimenting with this new schedule (why? Because some issues never went away, don't even with regular EI dosing and weekly WC!), but please, let me understand why alternating macros with micros would be better than dosing macros just once, and micros all other days... I'll be waiting your new answers because so far I haven't seen a logical explanation (am I really dumb?). Thanks!

 

[fablau]

Sorry, wrong post here.... How do I delete it?

 

[EnderUK]

Here you go....

The Phosphate precipitates, reacts, with the Iron is dosing into Iron phosphate removing the availability from both elements from the water column which then the plants cannot use. Test kits are inaccurate and probably will continue to measure the insoluble precipitates or may just be giving you a dud reading. You're plants are a better indicator that you're missing something.

 

[Jose]

Thank you Jose, I know that post very well, read probably a hundred times, and I have already tried it... As I said before, I am just experimenting with this new schedule (why? Because some issues never went away, don't even with regular EI dosing and weekly WC!), but please, let me understand why alternating macros with micros would be better than dosing macros just once, and micros all other days... I'll be waiting your new answers because so far I haven't seen a logical explanation (am I really dumb?). Thanks!

Yes phosphates and micros react and precipitate and also iron loses the bond with its chelator so it becomes mostly useless to plants. Chances are if you have low light and low metabolism in general then plants wont suffer cause there is still enough. Not the case if your tank is a lamborghini style tank.

 

[ian_m]

But if so, why I can still measure it, pretty high, at the end of the week?

You cannot measure it at the end of the week, any reading using a hobby test kit will give you a false reading leading you down the path to disaster. Chances are your phosphate kit is reading something else and phosphate levels at the end of the week may in fact be zero.

The only way to get known reliable phosphate (and nitrate and Mg) is to dose measured known amounts regularly, which is why EI was derived, so you are not relying on false test kit readings to set your fertiliser levels.

If you really insist you want to measure phosphate levels you will need a proper "big boy" test kit and yes they cost £100's..
http://www.lamotte.com/en/aquarium-fish-farming/individual-test-kits/3121-02.html
http://www.hach.com/phosphate-test-kit-total-ortho-meta-model-po-24/product?id=7640214961

However these can also be fooled, it is rumoured by some dechlorinator's, giving a false positive reading.

 

[Rahms]

I have to understand where is exactly the problem if at the end of the week I have dosed the same exact amount, no matter if I put 1/3 of the dose every other day, or a whole of a dose at the beginning of the week only

Please, help me to understand because I am not understanding.

If you don't see the point in dosing macros throughout the week, why do you dose micros 6 times throughout the week? People above seem to have answered (I didn't know), but if I was thinking "this seems like wasted effort" I probably wouldn't make up my own method that is the same amount of effort and follow that instead...

 

[fablau]

Ok folks, I got your point, and I will probably get back to alternating macros with micros by starting the next week, but as I said earlier, I have been doing that for months and the problems were there anyway. I changed to this schedule in desperation, and by reading around that some people were dosing macros just once a week and micros every day with success, I wanted to try. But no difference with before, therefore I will get back to regular alternating dosing, just to be sure.

To respond to Rahms' last question: I read that micros get oxidized more easily than macros (or really, they are the only ones getting oxidized), hence the daily micros routine.

I appreciated your help and efforts, and I will keep you posted with my tank situation in the coming weeks, but in the meantime, I can tell you that by doubling daily micros dosing in the past week improved my plants overall health. So, I will keep the same amount of micros in the coming weeks, by alternating them with macros.

 

[ian_m]

I can tell you that by doubling daily micros dosing in the past week improved my plants overall health

There you go you have just proved that "something is taking out your micro in the tank, as we have been saying most likely the phosphate from the weekly "dump". EI micro dose is normally many (maybe even x10) higher than actually required by the plants, thus something was clearly wrong with your method of fertilising.

 

[fablau]

There you go you have just proved that "something is taking out your micro in the tank, as we have been saying most likely the phosphate from the weekly "dump". EI micro dose is normally many (maybe even x10) higher than actually required by the plants, thus something was clearly wrong with your method of fertilising.

Ian, please, explain me the difference between the following 2 routines and how it is possible that with the second routine that I was trying until now, can happen what you are describing:

Routine 1 (alternating dosing EI recommended dose for a 75gl tank):

Saturday: 3/4 tsp No3, 1/4 tsp PO4, 1/4 tsp K
Sunday: 1/4 tsp CSM+B
...and so on until WC


Routine 2:

Saturday: 3/4 tsp No3, 1/4 tsp PO4, 1/4 tsp K
Sunday: 1/16 tsp CSM+B
Monday: 1/16 tsp CSM+B
Tuesday: : 1/16 tsp CSM+B
Wednesday: : 1/16 tsp CSM+B
Thursday: : 1/16 tsp CSM+B
Friday: rest
...and so on every week.

If you tell me that by following routine 2 I could bring macros such as P down because of their daily reaction with daily added Fe, I can understand that (because I am dosing macros just once a week); but if you tell me the exact opposite, which means that the second routine could reduce "micros" more than the first routine "because of the amount of P dumped at the beginning of the week"... Well, that really doesn't add up since with routine 2 I dose once a week the exact same amount I dose every other day with routine 1. Furthermore, with routine 2 I dose micros every day, and at the end of the week, I have dosed more micros than routine 1, therefore, how in the heck routine 2 could bring micros down "because of the P dumped at the beginning of the week"??

This was the whole point of my conversation and why I couldn't understand your statements above related to this concept. I hope what I wrote above makes sense. I will be waiting for your thoughts. Thank you.

 

[ian_m]

Because in routine 2 each dose is reacting with the PO4 thus being unavailable to the plants all week. In routine 1 the first day or two reacts with the PO4 until PO4 all gone, but leaving micro the rest of the week unaffected to feed the plants.

Dosing daily allows the PO4 or micro to be used by the plants before it might get precipitated out if any is left the next day.

 

[fablau]

I am so sorry, but I still have an hard time to understand the logic beyond your words, make no sense to me... Take routine 1, if I alternate Po4 with Micros, how can you say that only the 1st day or two reacts with Po4 until Po4 is gone if I dose it any other day? Doesn't make sense... Sorry!

 

[Sk3lly]

I am so sorry, but I still have an hard time to understand the logic beyond your words, make no sense to me... Take routine 1, if I alternate Po4 with Micros, how can you say that only the 1st day or two reacts with Po4 until Po4 is gone if I dose it any other day? Doesn't make sense... Sorry!

It's not difficult!

I think Ian is trying to explain this.....

With your large macro dump in one day, there is lots and lots of the solution left in the water. The plants cannot use anywhere near enough of it. So when your first micro dosing is added, it reacts with the large leftover macro mix.

If you dose EI PROPERLY then there is not quite as much macro solution in the water at any given time. Therefore reducing the precipitating affect with the micros.

This dosing schedule is idiot proof


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[ian_m]

Using numbers...

Assume 1 EI daily dose of PO4 and either 1 EI micro dose alternate days or 0.5 EI micro dose for your daily dosing scheme.

Thus dosing EI daily.

Sunday 1 unit PO4, plants scoff 0.5.
Monday 0.5 PO4 left, 1 unit micro added, but 0.5 reacts with PO4, still leaving 0.5 micro for plants to scoff.
Tuesday 1 unit PO4 added, plants scoff 0.5.
Wednesday 0.5 PO4 left, 1 unit micro added, but 0.5 reacts with PO4, still leaving 0.5 micro for plants to scoff.
etc etc

As you see generally, there will be levels of PO4 and micro for the plants to consume all week.

However using your weekly dump scheme.
Sunday add 3 units PO4. Plants scoff 0.5 leaving 3.5.
Monday 3.5 PO4 left add 0.5 unit micros, which reacts with PO4, leaving 3 units PO4 and plants scoff 0.5 leaving 2.5 units PO4. Hmm no micros today then.
Tuesday 2.5 units PO4 left add 0.5 unit micros, which reacts with PO4, leaving 2 units PO4 and plants scoff 0.5 leaving 1.5 units PO4. Hmm no micros again today then.
Wednesday 1.5 units PO4 left add 0.5 unit micros, which reacts with PO4, leaving 1 units PO4 and plants scoff 0.5 leaving 0.5 units PO4. Hmm no micros yet again today then.
Thursday 0.5 units PO4 left add 0.5 unit micros, which reacts with PO4, leaving 0 units PO4 and plants start to suffer no PO4 and no micros yet again today then.
Friday 0 units PO4 left add 0.5 unit micros...at last some micros for first time in 5 days but no PO4.

Thus as you see with a PO4 dump you end up with no micros at the beginning of the week, all being wasted reacting with PO4, and no PO4 at the end of the week all leading to plant starvation issues.