Help! plant deficiency or toxicity ? ( new pics)

Discussion in 'General Planted Tank Discussions' started by Emilio, 27 Feb 2017.

  1. xim

    xim Member

    Messages:
    513
    That is probably the effect of strong light which makes most stem plants look more bushy. It is definitely not the weight because if you uproot or trim them, they will float.
     
  2. Victor

    Victor Member

    Messages:
    279
    Location:
    Brazil
    My plants are suffering with this problem during years. Actually nobody knows what cause transparent leaves. You can try every thing, increase CO2 to an absurd level won't help at all. The glassy leaves will be still there even if you keep very high CO2, low light and very good flow and ferts during months. Increasing Fe level is another frustrated attempt, won't help. I tried every thing! A guy told me that glassy leaves could be micronutrient toxity so I've limited Fe dosage to 0,05 ppm per week, Cu: 0,00378 ppm,
    Mn: 0,025 ppm, Zn: 0,0049 ppm, Mo: 0,0068 ppm and B: 0,019 ppm. All them weekly dosage. Got some improvement? I don't know yet. It has passed 1 month and I still see glassy leaves growing. But is too early to take some conclusion for now. I like to test a thing during, at least, 3 months. How strong is your light to be considered high light? WP_20170303_23_51_24_Pro.jpg

    This a picture of my pogostemon. Note that left-hand side plant is completely transparent. I'm losing all my pogostemons. I've planted about 50 small stems of pogostemon. Now I have less than 20. They just melt off and die. Even the stems that look healthy like the one the right-hand side desintegrates after some weeks. It's the 21's centuary enigma.
     
  3. xim

    xim Member

    Messages:
    513
    When I experimented about Fe and Cu, Zn ratio in my micro mix. Rotala Green showed some glassy leaves when I stopped dosing Cu. But in the case of the OP, both of Tropica's liquid ferts contain generous amount of Cu. If there is Cu shortage from using their ferts, I don't know what to switch to (and I think I'm already quite obsessed about ingredients of micro mixes, DIY or branded, available in the hobby).
     
  4. HiNtZ

    HiNtZ Member

    Messages:
    557
    Location:
    London
    I see that you're in London - that would be Thames water like me. High calcium, very very low Mg. Mine out the tap is barely 2ppm. Try adding some MgSo4. Get it from the chemists.

    EDIT: Pretty sure I heard someone say there is a link between Mg and Fe. Without Mg, or too much Mg, Fe uptake will be inhibited. Not gospel - just repeating what I heard.
     
  5. Emilio

    Emilio Newly Registered

    Messages:
    24
    Location:
    london
    Hello , I do believe there is somthing interfering with the uptake of Fe or Mg

    Not sure what , maybe lowering the ph... would that work ?

    Also I'm going to begin dosing Mg tomorrow,
    As for Fe I'm not sure whether to dose more,

    Any straight forward recommendations ?

    Eg :
    1.Dose Mg and Fe ??

    2. Just do Mg ?

    3.just Lower ph /kh ?

    Which should I do
    I don't want things to start melting .

    Thanks for all the replies.
     
  6. dw1305

    dw1305 Expert

    Messages:
    8,133
    Location:
    nr Bath
    Hi all,
    You can start with adding more magnesium, you will see (or not see) a response fairly quickly. Magnesium is mobile within the plant and, if it is magnesium deficiency, when you add it you get a very quick greening response.

    Iron isn't mobile, which means that the plant can't move it to the pale chlorotic leaves that have already grown, but any new leaves will be larger and greener. This means that it takes much longer for the visible signs of iron deficiency to disappear when you add iron in a form that is plant available.

    Plants will move mobile elements to the newest leaves, because these have access to brightest light.They can't move the non-mobile elements, which means that chlorotic new leaves are usually caused by non-mobile elements like iron.

    cheers Darrel
     
    xim likes this.
  7. Emilio

    Emilio Newly Registered

    Messages:
    24
    Location:
    london
    ok thanks , i understand now :)
    co2 is very high and i have still been double dosing tropica ferts with no signs of improvement.
    any recommendations for Fe to dose also side Mg?

    thanks
     
  8. xim

    xim Member

    Messages:
    513
    Ultimately, if Micros dosing is already high and if water hardness is the culprit, I think the best step to take is to mix the tap with RO or rain water to lower the hardness.
     
  9. Victor

    Victor Member

    Messages:
    279
    Location:
    Brazil
    Here I dose 0,05 ppm (it's not 0,5 ppm) of Fe and 7 ppm of Mg per week. Note that the amount of iron your plants need is extremely low. Unless you aren't dosing it you won't see any iron deficiency.
     
  10. Ed.Junior

    Ed.Junior Member

    Messages:
    78
    Location:
    Brazil
    Try checking your water report. GH is basically the sum of Ca and Mg, without the report it is hard to assume something, but adding MgSO4/Epsom salts will not hurt. Adding 1-2 dGH from Seachem Equilibrium is also possible in case you can't find MgSO4, but you would also be increasing Ca.

    Take a step back and consider the whole picture.

    1. Lighting is the driver of growth, lots of light, lots of everything.

    2. CO2 can be measured by the pH drop. 1 point pH drop is okay for most people. BPS is just a visual cue to you that things are working, not a measure.
    Turning it on before lights is also a common practice.

    3. Ferts. I cannot over emphasise this: know what you are dosing. Forget the brand, instructions, etc. They are useful, but what does it mean "5ml of this product in 50l?" As others pointed out, go for the concentrations, ppm, mg/l, etc. You have to provide 2 basic things: Macros (NPK, usually in the form of Nitrates, Phosphates and Potassium) and Micros (Fe, along with the commonly used EDTA or DTPA chelators, plus trace elements, like Zn, Mn, Cu, Mo, etc.).

    4. Circulation is sometimes neglected. If water doesnt go around bringing all the good stuff (ferts and co2), then plants will have a problem. Same thing for Biomass, not only it block the water access, but it also creates competition. Light and CO2 competition is something not to be ignored ;)

    5. Cleaniness. People forget to clean their filters (clean it once a month, attention to the bio-media), skip the water changes (bi-weekly at least, on a high tech tank), let too much mulm accumulate on the substrate (vacuum it), hoses completely filled with algae, etc. Keep biological waste down and things will get easier.

    6. Patience. Introducing constant changes will not help. The mechanisms through which plants acquire nutrients, for instance the enzymes, take a while to adjust (read: weeks). Introduce changes, give it time (again, weeks).

    One tank can improve significantly in 2 weeks, and grow wonders within 2 months of good care.


    Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
     
  11. Ed.Junior

    Ed.Junior Member

    Messages:
    78
    Location:
    Brazil
    And forget micro toxicity and addressing tiny differences with ferts.

    I dose 10ppm NO3, 3ppm PO4, 10ppm K, 0.3ppm Fe-EDTA, 3x per week, and never had any issue with that.

    Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
     
  12. dw1305

    dw1305 Expert

    Messages:
    8,133
    Location:
    nr Bath
    Hi all,
    You don't know the relative contribution of magnesium and calcium, but there is unlikely to be much magnesium in the water because of the <"geology">.
    You could try a chelator designed for hard water, <"FeEDDHA or FeDTPA>" are the normal recommendations.

    cheers Darrel
     
  13. xim

    xim Member

    Messages:
    513
    The OP is using Tropica liquid ferts which already use strong chelators (DTPA and HEEDTA). And Fe will be chelated by DTPA because iron has the highest affinity with it than other nutrients.

    Fe-EDDHA is stronger than DTPA but the colour is very intense even at low concentrations that it's unsuitable for aquariums. The image below shows the colour of Fe-EDDHA solution at various concentrations. The numbers are in PPM, so tank water will look like the 0.5 vial at the end of the week.

    IMG_0139-e1408663015653.jpg
    Image from: http://scottspridefarm.com/2015/12/iron-chelate-interference-downside-fe-eddha-fe-hbed/

    That's the reason why I said if the Tropica ferts didn't work, I didn't know what to switch to.
     
    Last edited: 6 Mar 2017
    dw1305 and Ed.Junior like this.
  14. Emilio

    Emilio Newly Registered

    Messages:
    24
    Location:
    london
    hello,
    does anyone know how i can dose epsom salts,
    never done something like this before.
    can i add straight to the water column?
    if so how much for a 13 litre?

    or would mixing a solution be better?
    if so how much ml water to how many spoons?

    does it need to be done after a water change or can i add now,
    straight away?
    thanks
     
    Last edited: 6 Mar 2017
  15. Emilio

    Emilio Newly Registered

    Messages:
    24
    Location:
    london


    hello,
    its not because its bushy
    its not due to flow either.
    the top part of the stem is bent.

    heard this happens due to fe deficiency?
     
  16. Ed.Junior

    Ed.Junior Member

    Messages:
    78
    Location:
    Brazil
    Use RotalaButterfly.com nutrient calculator to help you with the solutions.
    You add the salt directly to the water, but making a solution is something more practical, because you can dose it easier next time. It is up to you.

    Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
     
  17. xim

    xim Member

    Messages:
    513
    I would add 461.46 mg of Epsom salt per week for your tank size. This is 3.5 PPM of magnesium.
    I would mix it with some water and pour into the tank after a water change. The amount of water to mix with is not important as long as it all dissolves.

    For the spoon, I only have a small 1/4 teaspoon measuring spoon and it has no use for the current batch of my Epsom salt which is the large grain type, sorry.
     
    Last edited: 6 Mar 2017
  18. xim

    xim Member

    Messages:
    513
    The suggested level option of the calculator is confusing. For me, I always use the how much to add to reach the target option because I know the target. But the OP might not.
     
  19. dw1305

    dw1305 Expert

    Messages:
    8,133
    Location:
    nr Bath
    Hi all,
    So we are talking ~1/2 a gram of Epsom Salts, making it difficult to weigh out.

    I'm pretty slap-dash with dosing, so I would:
    1. Add five teaspoonfuls (~5g a teaspoon) of "Epsom Salts" to 2000g of water (just use a 2 litre "pop" bottle), and then dose that at 4cm3 of the stock solution per week. The advantage of 4cm3 is that is ~near enough a teaspoon of stock solution.
    2. or three times a week, lick your little finger, dip the tip of it in the "Epsom Salts", wash your finger off in the tank.
    Personally I'd use option 2. but I realise that it is going to be too ad hoc for some people.

    cheers Darrel
     
  20. xim

    xim Member

    Messages:
    513
    The number is just copied from the calculator, I didn't bother rounding it out. But yeah, I use a two-decimal gram scale. :oops:

    By the way, I think when you're used to using something, you can be quite accurate about its amount even without a measuring accessory, like in cooking.
     
    dw1305 likes this.

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