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How would you position 3x lilly pipes outflow/inflow running on 3x canister filters ..Staghorn and bba comming back.

ceg4048

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You saying co2 issue.
Co2 comes on 4h before lights ..Co2 drops from 6.5 to 5.3 using two co2 reactors.
I'm using a ph controller calibrated each month to just make sure the probe measuring properly.
At the moment the tank light and co2 is off for about 36h so it should be completely degassed and ph is 6.57
So I'm maintaining more than 1 ph drop ..Ph controller is set to ph 5.33 and switching off by ph 5.25 ...
As I said at the top cant go lower. Shrimps acting like crazy all over the tank and wants to jump out.
Hello Stefan,
Thanks for the kind words. Normally, when you have a situation where the animals are stressed by the CO2, yet at the same time the plants suffer CO2 related faults then the problem can be attributed to poor flow/distribution.

Now, you do have a lot of light. That amount of light drives a very high demand for CO2.
Generally, RO water is not good for pH probes or for their accuracy. You may wish to think about adding any carbonate salt in order to raise the KH to about 3-4.

I find it very strange that with two CO2 diffusers it takes 4 hours to drop the pH by 1 unit. This can be due to a low injection rate but can also be due to poor distribution. Is the dropchecker green/yellow at lights on?

It's very difficult to solve distribution problems if you are limited in placing the outflow. There is no such thing as creating a vortex in the tank. That is an illusion, and a terrible one at that, because placing outflows at opposite ends of the tank causes flow cancellation. If you need to add more tubing to be able to mount that one outlet on the same side as the two biomasters it would be worth trying.

Cheers,
 

robinj

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9 Aug 2018
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Location
Europe
Hello Stefan,
Thanks for the kind words. Normally, when you have a situation where the animals are stressed by the CO2, yet at the same time the plants suffer CO2 related faults then the problem can be attributed to poor flow/distribution.

Now, you do have a lot of light. That amount of light drives a very high demand for CO2.
Generally, RO water is not good for pH probes or for their accuracy. You may wish to think about adding any carbonate salt in order to raise the KH to about 3-4.

I find it very strange that with two CO2 diffusers it takes 4 hours to drop the pH by 1 unit. This can be due to a low injection rate but can also be due to poor distribution. Is the dropchecker green/yellow at lights on?

It's very difficult to solve distribution problems if you are limited in placing the outflow. There is no such thing as creating a vortex in the tank. That is an illusion, and a terrible one at that, because placing outflows at opposite ends of the tank causes flow cancellation. If you need to add more tubing to be able to mount that one outlet on the same side as the two biomasters it would be worth trying.

Cheers,
Hi, are you sure he has the pipes wrong? Cause he has outflows in the opposing corners so I would actually expect this to create a vortex (circular flow around tank sides). No? If he had those Biomasters centered, then I would expect that the flow goes down and back (laminar), but when in the corner I think the flow is partially reflected to down and to the side creating whirlwind. No?
 

ceg4048

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Messages
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Hi, are you sure he has the pipes wrong? Cause he has outflows in the opposing corners so I would actually expect this to create a vortex (circular flow around tank sides). No? If he had those Biomasters centered, then I would expect that the flow goes down and back (laminar), but when in the corner I think the flow is partially reflected to down and to the side creating whirlwind. No?
Hi,
No, this rarely, if ever, happens. The reason is that the water comes out of the pipe as an expanding cone. The cones from each direction then collide and typically cause cancellation. This weakens the flow from each direction. It is always better to have all pump outlets on the same side, pointing in the same direction. That way the effect of the the combined flows is additive and more flow energy moves across the tank. Opposing flow directions are never as good, generally.
And no, there won't be any laminar flow from any of our pumps and in any case, there is no advantage when moving along the glass. Laminar flow is typically due to weak flow, so this doesn't really help.
Having said that, every tanks has different obstacles and different dimensions so it's always worthwhile trying different combinations. So what may not work theoretically may work in practice due to the geometry.

Cheers,
 

erwin123

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Location
Singapore
I guess all outlets on the same side is sort of mimicking what a long spray bar would do, and those have proven to be very effective based on user experiences here.

I have 2 canisters but the positioning was done a long time ago, pre-UKAPS, so I have stuck with outlets in opposite corners and have managed to achieve a relatively 'circular flow' (based on twinstar mist), but I also agree that there is nothing 'special' about circular flow, it sort of seemed a logical thing to do (until I read about spraybars in UKAPS which are all on one side).

What I'm still trying to figure out is the best way to help Lily pipes push more water to the substrate level.... (at least my Twinstar mist is being pushed to the substrate level, but even more circulation at the substrate level would be better)
 

Driftless

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4 Jul 2020
Messages
245
Location
Chicago-area
I thought that I would throw out my configuration for my large discus and angelfish tanks for your comments and criticisms. I always use two similarly sized filters for redundancy, to even out the flow in the tanks, and, well these fish are messy eaters. Looking at the tank on the side right glass panel I have the two intakes, one is a skimmer. In the back right corner, I have a Lily pipe outflow that is pushing water along the back glass panel. In the back left corner, there is the second Lily pipe outflow that is pushing water to the front panel of the tank. Typically my tanks have Val or large Amazon Swords in the back center of the tanks. I have spent a lot of time watching the micro-bubbles from the CO2 and Twinstar move around the tanks.
 

ceg4048

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I guess all outlets on the same side is sort of mimicking what a long spray bar would do, and those have proven to be very effective based on user experiences here.

I have 2 canisters but the positioning was done a long time ago, pre-UKAPS, so I have stuck with outlets in opposite corners and have managed to achieve a relatively 'circular flow' (based on twinstar mist), but I also agree that there is nothing 'special' about circular flow, it sort of seemed a logical thing to do (until I read about spraybars in UKAPS which are all on one side).

What I'm still trying to figure out is the best way to help Lily pipes push more water to the substrate level.... (at least my Twinstar mist is being pushed to the substrate level, but even more circulation at the substrate level would be better)
Hi erwin,
Yeah, getting nice even flow to the substrate really does require the combined effort of all the outputs to push the water across and then down, regardless of what type of output. Robinj above in post #22 mentions a desire for laminar flow, but that is only true when the water makes contact with the leaves. In order to deliver the flow to the plant beds you need the oomph of non-laminar flow in order for it to stick to the tank wall and travel down to the substrate. This seems counterintuitive, but the more energy the flow has, the better it sticks to the surface that it is moving along. You want to use the energy to carry the water along so that by the time it gets to the plant beds it has expended most of it's energy in getting there, slows down and becomes more laminar across the leaves.
It's difficult to tell from looking at bubbles whether the flow across a particular region is nice and even and headed in the right direction because the bubbles are under another independent force, i.e., that of their buoyancy, so their movement is a composite of both the flow force and buoyancy forces It's better to visualize using a tiny piece of paper, which has near enough neutral buoyancy to illustrate the flow path for you. You could even add small pumps like Koralia to add energy to the flow. Trying to push water along the long axis of the tank is more difficult but that's what many have to deal with for practical reasons.
I thought that I would throw out my configuration for my large discus and angelfish tanks for your comments and criticisms. I always use two similarly sized filters for redundancy, to even out the flow in the tanks, and, well these fish are messy eaters. Looking at the tank on the side right glass panel I have the two intakes, one is a skimmer. In the back right corner, I have a Lily pipe outflow that is pushing water along the back glass panel. In the back left corner, there is the second Lily pipe outflow that is pushing water to the front panel of the tank. Typically my tanks have Val or large Amazon Swords in the back center of the tanks. I have spent a lot of time watching the micro-bubbles from the CO2 and Twinstar move around the tanks.
Hi Driftless,
As I mentioned, depending on the placement of flow obstacles in the tank we are forced to deviate from the theoretical ideal. On face value and theoretically speaking, the most ideal configuration is actually to have both lily pipes on the same panel and also to have the intakes mounted on that same panel so that all four implements are lined up along that panel, whether it be left or right panel. Again, the shape we are trying to draw is (lets say we mount everything on the right panel) flow across the upper 1/3rd water layer from right to left, then the flow strikes the left panel and is forced down. the flow then strikes the substrate and is forced along the substrate to the right. The debris is on the substrate picked up on the water's travel to the right where the intake pipes are waiting.
But there are always obstacles, like hardscape and plants, correct? Depending on the strength of the filters, they may not have enough muscle to carry the water 2X the tank length + 1X tank height. This is a common weakness, so the combination of issues means you have to move away from our theoretical configuration.
As I said, your solution probably works better than the theoretical for that tank. I only say that the theoretical configuration is the best configuration to start with, then deviate based on actual real life conditions. Again, I would use a few very tiny pieces of paper, just to see how they move. I have a distrust of bubbles in this regard.

Hope this makes sense somewhat! :dead:

Cheers,
 

Driftless

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Messages
245
Location
Chicago-area
Hi erwin,
Yeah, getting nice even flow to the substrate really does require the combined effort of all the outputs to push the water across and then down, regardless of what type of output. Robinj above in post #22 mentions a desire for laminar flow, but that is only true when the water makes contact with the leaves. In order to deliver the flow to the plant beds you need the oomph of non-laminar flow in order for it to stick to the tank wall and travel down to the substrate. This seems counterintuitive, but the more energy the flow has, the better it sticks to the surface that it is moving along. You want to use the energy to carry the water along so that by the time it gets to the plant beds it has expended most of it's energy in getting there, slows down and becomes more laminar across the leaves.
It's difficult to tell from looking at bubbles whether the flow across a particular region is nice and even and headed in the right direction because the bubbles are under another independent force, i.e., that of their buoyancy, so their movement is a composite of both the flow force and buoyancy forces It's better to visualize using a tiny piece of paper, which has near enough neutral buoyancy to illustrate the flow path for you. You could even add small pumps like Koralia to add energy to the flow. Trying to push water along the long axis of the tank is more difficult but that's what many have to deal with for practical reasons.

Hi Driftless,
As I mentioned, depending on the placement of flow obstacles in the tank we are forced to deviate from the theoretical ideal. On face value and theoretically speaking, the most ideal configuration is actually to have both lily pipes on the same panel and also to have the intakes mounted on that same panel so that all four implements are lined up along that panel, whether it be left or right panel. Again, the shape we are trying to draw is (lets say we mount everything on the right panel) flow across the upper 1/3rd water layer from right to left, then the flow strikes the left panel and is forced down. the flow then strikes the substrate and is forced along the substrate to the right. The debris is on the substrate picked up on the water's travel to the right where the intake pipes are waiting.
But there are always obstacles, like hardscape and plants, correct? Depending on the strength of the filters, they may not have enough muscle to carry the water 2X the tank length + 1X tank height. This is a common weakness, so the combination of issues means you have to move away from our theoretical configuration.
As I said, your solution probably works better than the theoretical for that tank. I only say that the theoretical configuration is the best configuration to start with, then deviate based on actual real life conditions. Again, I would use a few very tiny pieces of paper, just to see how they move. I have a distrust of bubbles in this regard.

Hope this makes sense somewhat! :dead:

Cheers,
Thank you for your comments. My flow obstructions are at the rear/back of the tank as compared with George Farmer's discus tank where he has plants/scape in the center of his tank. I use equal capacity filters which are plenty strong individually so there is not a strong/weak system. The return flow along the front of the tank is not restricted until it gets to the outflow. This weekend I will be doing tank and filter maintenance on a Discus and an Angelfish tank and I will try your suggestion using tiny pieces of paper. I understand and appreciate your suggestions, I may try them on a future tank. Thank you.
 

Driftless

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4 Jul 2020
Messages
245
Location
Chicago-area
Post-Script: when I didn't have the flow the set up this way I had algae forming in the vegetation at the back of the tank that wasn't receiving good flow.
 
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