Hygrophila pinnatifida issue

Discussion in 'Plant Help' started by Hanuman, 12 Mar 2019.

  1. Hanuman

    Hanuman Member

    Messages:
    95
    Location:
    Thailand
    Some of my hygrophila pinnatifida is exhibiting some discolouration and spotting. Not being a plant expert it's difficult for me to assess what the problem is.
    The tank is 2.5 months old, using Black Earth substrate (Cal Aqua Labs).
    Co2 injection enought for the co2 checker to be light green.
    Fertilizer dosing with trace elements (full dose) + Potassium (half dose).

    Here are some pics:
    IMG_0242.JPG IMG_0243.JPG

    Ideas?
     
  2. Tim Harrison

    Tim Harrison Global Moderator Staff Member

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    K deficiency perhaps...
    Why the half dose ?
     
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  3. Hanuman

    Hanuman Member

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    95
    Location:
    Thailand
    As per the recommendation of the soil manufacturer and owner to whom I talked in person. Doesn’t necesarely means he is right though. I suppose the half dose is to avoid overfertilizing as the substrate is new and contains nutrients.
     
  4. Tim Harrison

    Tim Harrison Global Moderator Staff Member

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    Regardless of substrate I'd always recommend providing full fertz dose. After 2.5 months the substrate could become deficient in certain nutrients if you're under dosing the water column, and perhaps in the quantities of K needed by H. pinnatifida; it's often quoted as being a complete K hog.
     
  5. Hanuman

    Hanuman Member

    Messages:
    95
    Location:
    Thailand
    Well that’s good to know. I will increase fertilization to full dose see how things go from there.
     
  6. Hanuman

    Hanuman Member

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    95
    Location:
    Thailand
    I have to come back on what I said. I realized this morning when adding the ferts that I got mixed up. I am actually adding full dose of potassium and half dose of trace elements. I read here that H. pinnatifida could suffer from micronutrient toxicities which in turn caused a K deficiency due to uptake blocking or translocation. Not sure if this is case though.

    These are the nutrients I am using: http://calaqualabs.com/nutrients/
     
    Last edited: 13 Mar 2019
  7. Tim Harrison

    Tim Harrison Global Moderator Staff Member

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    I've never used Cal Aqua Labs fertz before, so all I can say about them with any degree of confidence is that the bottles are nice colours.
    Micronutrients can be toxic in high concentrations but the author doesn't make any reference to peer reviewed scientific literature to substantiate his claims. I've read these sorts unsubstantiated explanations as to why H. pinnatifida doesn't grow properly, suffers tissue necrosis etc, as such none of them are particularly helpful. In this case it could be just as likely that a micronutrient deficiency is causing the problem; not enough to uptake or metabolise K etc.

    Further, if your tank is heavily planted you may need to use more than the stated dose on the bottle. I'm now dosing around 3 x the recommended dose; I use TNC Complete. Also, it could be a CO2 issue not enough, poor flow and distribution, unstable etc. Some stats and pics of your tank might be helpful...
     
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  8. Hanuman

    Hanuman Member

    Messages:
    95
    Location:
    Thailand
    Thanks Tim. As usual pretty spot on comments. As posted on another thread here is my tank:


    In term of stats not sure what I can give but here is what I know now. I can provide more info later today when I get home by doing some tests:
    - Co2: 3 bps
    - fertilizer: currently full dose K and half dose micro
    - Ludwigia palustrus also suffuring but uncertain if the cause is the same as for the hygrophilia disscussed here
    - Tank 2.5 month old.
    - Fish: 3 gouramis, 8/10 otos, probably > 90 shrimps (red cherry, blue velvet, red nose, amano, bamboo shrimp), identified snails, 3 clea helena
    - Water parameters will provide later but last time I tested PH ~ 6/7, GH ~ 8 to 12, KH can't remember, ammonia, nitrate, nitrites where stable ~ 0
     
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  9. Tim Harrison

    Tim Harrison Global Moderator Staff Member

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    Nice scape. The rest of your plants look very healthy.
    Ah yes, now I remember.
    Do you know the capacity and dimensions of your tank, output of your filter l/h, and the intensity and duration of your photoperiod?
    It could be a CO2 issue; bps doesn't really mean anything. Ideally you need to aim for a drop checker colour that is constantly lime green at lights on and all the way till lights off. Your drop checker looks like it's not quite there.

    It appears that it's only your faster growing stems that are suffering, the feathery plant, Rotala sp.?, looks a bit thin lower down as well. The slower growing plants seem fine, so my guess is that it's a combination of poor CO2 implementation and nutrient deficiency.

    The only potential outlier is L. palustrus since it supposedly has a low CO2 requirement. However, under intense lighting it will likely be more CO2 and nutrient demanding.

    Have you increased the light intensity recently ?
    And is it only older leaves on the H. pinnatifida that are suffering ?
     
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  10. Hanuman

    Hanuman Member

    Messages:
    95
    Location:
    Thailand
    Yes these two plants are the ones acting weird.

    It's a 90cmX45cmx45cm
    I am using 2 filters:
    - 1 is "purely" a biological filter with some Seachem Purigen at the last stage prior water re-entry to tank - Atman AT3337S 18W rated 1500 L/H (truthfully probably half that)
    - 1 is a pre filter with only filter pads corse, medium, fine, floss: Eheim 2213 (or 250) 8W rated 400 L/H
    The first week or so I only let the Atman run without electrically plugging the Eheim but flow was kind of slow due the increase resistance created by the pre-filter so I plugged the pre-filter to help the main filter.
    Photoperiod: 10h to 18h so 8 hours. Co2 comes on 30 minutes before lights turn on.

    Yes true bps doesn't mean anything. Drop checker is usually light greenish but maybe not lime green as you say. I don't bother looking at the chart and comparing hardness with PH. Perhaps I should and also increase co2 injection.

    Yes that is Rotala wallichii. That video was taken around a month ago so the plants look good. I will make a new one and post it.
    L. palustrus could indeed be a combination of Co2/light and nutriment deficiency unbalance.
    Light intensity was increased somewhere around 2/3 weeks ago and I also increased slightly co2 injection but really nothing much perhaps 1/2 bubble more. Light went from 60% to 75%. It's now at 100% since yesterday because I removed that piece of s***t of Commander 4 and so there is no way to regulate the intensity now. I will move the light slightly up this evening to compensate but I think it will not be enough. That's a WRGB 90 from Chihiros by the way. Not the best I admit but does the job ok I suppose.
    On the H. pinnatifida yes the issue seems to be on the lower leafs, so yes the older ones.
     
    Last edited: 13 Mar 2019
  11. Tim Harrison

    Tim Harrison Global Moderator Staff Member

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    Thought so...that will be the root cause of the problem then. The higher light intensity will have driven much faster growth (especially in the stems), and in turn increased CO2 and nutrient demand beyond that which you're currently providing.
    60% to 75% is a large jump to make in one go, 5% a week gives plants more time to adjust and for you to ensure the fertz dosing is adequate, and to re-dial the CO2 in. At that light intensity your fertz and CO2 need to be on point.

    The solution is to raise the light a lot more, especially considering it's now at 100% intensity, and to increase your fertz and to dial up your CO2.
    Try putting it on about 2 hours before to get the lime green drop checker at lights on. Mine comes on 3 hours before to get that and to remain constantly so throughout the photoperiod.

    Your tank is about 182 litres so a combined filter out of 1900 l/h should give adequate flow. There maybe a problem with circulation because of the juxtaposition of the lily outflow and the DW, but it looks fine to me. You could try moving the drop checker around to be sure though.
    Given the situation that almost certainly means the plant is reassigning mobile nutrients like K to grow new leaves since there isn't enough available externally.
     
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  12. Zeus.

    Zeus. Member

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    Your having the same issue with hygrophila pinnatifida as myself and what we both have is Very Hard water

    I have been trying to get to the bottom of the problem and think it might be an issue with the hard water and availability of Fe.

    Still reading around and have to decide my next move
     
  13. Tim Harrison

    Tim Harrison Global Moderator Staff Member

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    I've grown perfectly healthy H. pinnatifida in hard water. From what I can remember AG manage to grow it well in their showroom tanks and the water in that area is very hard. I think also the leaves would be showing signs of chlorosis if it were iron deficiency.
     
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  14. Hanuman

    Hanuman Member

    Messages:
    95
    Location:
    Thailand
    Again I just checked my Commander 4 settings and it was not 75% but 70%. Gosh I should go buy a new brain. Getting old and forgetting everything! Anyway your point is still valid and your explanation makes complete sense. Considering I do not have a way to raise the light higher than the two side stands allow, I am forced to add back the Commander 4...grrr which will allow me to regulate the intensity through software. I will increase to 75% to and slight raise the light to compensate the increased distance and will also increase slightly Co2 perhaps 1 or 2 bubbles more to 4 or 5 bps and assess from there. What do you say? Perhaps also increase micro to full dosage and increase K as well?

    Ok will try that.

    Ok noted will try that

    Increase K required then.

    Thinking it through, the other solution would be to simply decrease light intensity slightly without touching other parameters. Would that be fine too?
     
  15. Hanuman

    Hanuman Member

    Messages:
    95
    Location:
    Thailand
    And here is the tank as of 1 hour ago!

    Ignore the Twinstar bubbler below the lily pipe. It's not mine. I'm simply trying it out as I like the view of the bubbles it makes lol
     
    Last edited: 13 Mar 2019
  16. Hanuman

    Hanuman Member

    Messages:
    95
    Location:
    Thailand
    And here are the parameters:
    Ammonia/Nitrate/Nitrite ~ 0
    GH ~ 7
    KH >6 but <10
    PH ~ 7

    IMG_0258.JPG
     
  17. Tim Harrison

    Tim Harrison Global Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    6,168
    Location:
    Leicester
    I would increase fertz to full dose and reduce light intensity until you have your CO2 dialled in correctly, and you get healthy growth again. Be patient and take it from there.
     
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  18. Hanuman

    Hanuman Member

    Messages:
    95
    Location:
    Thailand
    Thanks Tim. Appreciate the help.
     
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  19. sciencefiction

    sciencefiction Member

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    3,135
    I took the liberty to zoom into one of your pictures. I hope its ok.

    From the pictures it looks like old leaves are affected, which points to Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Potassium, Magnesium and Manganese and I am inclined to believe its the latter one.

    Your plant:
    Plant Chlorosis.jpg



    See what it looks like on terrestrial plants
    : Manganese.jpg

    https://www.zambeza.com/blog-how-to...nganese-deficiency-in-your-cannabis-crop-n153

    Manganese deficiency symptoms manifest in different ways, including colour changes in the leaves. Leaves will begin to turn more pale in hue. New and older, lower leaves will begin to turn yellow. Yellowing will also occur between the veins of the leaves. The veins themselves will remain green. Brown or dark spots will also occur of the surface of leaves, as well as a mottling pattern. These dark spots will eventually spread and result in the death of leaves, which may end up falling apart altogether. Growth of leaves will also slow. The overall development of plants will begin to degrade.
     
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  20. Hanuman

    Hanuman Member

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    95
    Location:
    Thailand
    @scientification - OMG copyright infringement! LOL. No worries. It's not like I'm going to make money out of that ugly picture I took.
    I suppose the full dose of trace elements I started dosing should take care of the manganese problem if manganese was also lacking. Thanks for the input.
     
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