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Interesting blog

Ammonia and nitrite will always be available at some level at some point as a food source for bacteria. Without oxygen the process will break down.

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Thanks for the info AWB, if however you had a high plant mass to fish load would your plants 'mop up' the ammonia before the filter bacteria?
 
I'm probably not best qualified to say but yes, I would say that's pretty much it. The guy is trying to grow plants in a low nitrogen, low co2 environment with high lighting. EI is a eutrophic way of growing plants based on an abundance of nutrients which is an environment algae quite like as well so soon as you get a hint of dirtier water the algae boom.
The guy looks like he is eliminating nitrogen with floaters and high plant mass and not having a biological filter running which is very effective at producing nitrate through ammonia, probably quicker than the plants get hold of it. Having a small amount of ammonia seems to be better for the plants as they don't use as much energy consuming it.
On first set up even if you don't want certain plants in your scape it probably wouldn't do any harm to load up with floaters and fast growing stems that are sacrificial and clip them out later so the bio mass and surface area is at its optimum as soon as possible preventing issued with new tanks even with a filter.
Probably why some people get early stage bother. Because they have demanding plants based on they have the high light to grow them but because they are slow getting off their feet you can run into issues early on especially with high lighting and immature filter.

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Hi all,
bit dim but are you saying Darrel that oxygen is more important than ammonia to the biological bacteria in a canister filter?
No you aren't dim, that is it, oxygen is more important than ammonia.

Aquarists are fixated on ammonia and "cycling", but scientists measure how polluted water is by estimating its <"biochemical oxygen demand"> (BOD). Ammonia is prime component of BOD, because you need to go add three atoms of oxygen for every molecule of ammonia that undergoes nitrification. You've gone from NH3/NH4+ to NO3- before the oxygen demand is fulfilled.

In any system if the oxygen supply exceeds the oxygen demand ammonia won't build up to dangerous levels, and it doesn't matter how you get rid of the ammonia. Nitrite (NO2-) is also toxic, but less toxic than NH3, and nitrate is ~safe. You can only remove the NO3 from a system in three ways.
  • By take up by plants.
  • By water changes.
  • By anaerobic out-gassing as N2 gas (denitrification).
Assuming you change some water in a planted tank, with a substrate, you will have all three processes occurring. The advantage of floating plant is that they aren't CO2 limited, meaning that they can show a quick growth response to higher levels of fixed nitrogen. Denitrification will occur in the substrate.

cheers Darrel
 
Your whole tank will be covered with bacteria, So the plants also provide a larger surface area for the bacteria to colonise. The bacteria can utalise alotbof different food sources not just ammonia.They are constantly multiplying and to old biofilm will die and be replaced by new. The new biofilm is more efective than the old at reducing toxins and waste. The is how a moving bed filter works, The old biofilm is constantly being rubbed off by the fluidised action and is replaced by new. Think the new guys even eat the old if thier is no other food source available. As this bacterial process uses oxygen this will be the limiting factor in your tank.
This is the reason a wet dry shower type filter is more effective than a submerged filter as it has a greater surface to air ratio so is not oxigen limited.
Your plants will also absorb co2 and release oxigen into the tank water through photosynthesis so mean your bacterial colonys can be larger. Once the water hits oxygen saturation point the plants will pearl.
If there is little or no oxygen things turn anaerobic and favoir another form of bacteria and nasty things are released into the water column by these guys.
So ammonia reduction will prob be a joint effort between the plants and bacteria. As your tank and substrate mature the more biofilm there will be.
This post is running long and making my head hurt:).
 
"This post is running long and making my head hurt:)."

It's a good one though :)

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Is this where the Twinstar and derivatives comes from maybe. Increasing o2 significantly as well as mild sterilising with out having to increase surface agitation so you can keep both your o2 and co2.

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Is this where the Twinstar and derivatives comes from maybe. Increasing o2 significantly as well as mild sterilising with out having to increase surface agitation so you can keep both your o2 and co2.

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This is the million dollar question as no one seems sure:).
My guess would be it works in much tne same way as ozone at a lower level. It will destroy the water born algae cells. But it cannot know the algea cells from other water born cells so will destroy the good guys too.
You can still get oxygen saturation levels in the water regardless of the co2 level allthough you will have to use more injected co2 to maintain the co2 level.
This is why the plants still pearl in high co2 water?
I would think in a planted tank the ORP would be higher too due to the high oxygen levels in the water?
 
This is the million dollar question as no one seems sure

Seems to be the general census of opinion. Initially it seems to put out hydrogen peroxide which reacts with the first thing it comes in contact with the converts to o2. I don't suppose adding extra o2 without degassing the co2 is such a bad thing. Maybe why some noted scapers had good results with new tanks. Newly establishing bacteria putting a demand on o2, I guess the first few weeks with brand new surfaces to colonise would mean rapid multiplication and high demand on o2 maybe?
 
I'd like to start with thanking all of you for reading my blog and having such a thoughtful discussion about it. If you write a blog you always wonder if anyone will actually read it so seeing this thread is rewarding. I'll be addressing some of the questions and suggestions but the topic is closely related to the "Maxing CO2 in low tech" and "EI ferts on a low-tech tank" threads so I'm reading those first.
 
Thanks for popping in Bart, your blog makes really interesting reading. I'm also a fan of dwarf cichlids so plenty of information to digest. There's the full spectrum in this forum from world class aquascapers to low tech under water gardeners. Nice journal section to document your experiments so we can follow progress as it happens and obviously your blog.
 
From reading comments it seems two blogs are mixed up. One blog has to do with using plants as the (sole) filter in the tank and the other with using high light intensity without using (EI) fertilizers or CO2. I'll start with the planted filter and we can get back to the bright-light topic later if there is interest.

Most plants prefer to take up ammonia rather than nitrate and it takes some energy to reduce nitrate back to ammonia inside the plant tissue. However, I am not really concerned with providing plants with ammonia instead of nitrate. In many cases plants are not energy but CO2 limited so wasting a bit of energy is not an issue. Using ammonia is just a small bonus. In tanks with bacterial filter and dense plant growth I also do not know who will win the fight over ammonia. Does most of the ammonia go straight to plants, leaving the filter with at best a very small population of nitrifying bacteria, or will bacteria convert most of the ammonia to nitrate forcing plants to convert nitrate back to ammonia? In the latter case it may actually be beneficial to discard the filter (or just keep it for mechanical and/or chemical filtration plus circulation). Not so much because plants must waste a bit of energy to use nitrate but because converting ammonia to nitrate is a drain on dissolved oxygen. Darren has written extensively about this and I have started to appreciate this aspect more after finishing the blog (see below).

My main motivation was that I keep and breed wild-caught South American dwarf cichlids and they prefer clean water, i.e. low nitrogen and organic waste concentrations. By giving plants everything they need except nitrogen, the only nitrogen they get is what is produced by fish and decomposition of organic materials. That means their growth rate is limited by how much nitrogen they can access and as long as nitrogen demand exceeds supply no ammonia or its oxidation products should accumulate. By using a substantial, up to 100%, cover of floating plants (that are not CO2 limited and get the highest amount of light) I find I can support fish bio-loads that probably exceed what is recommended for conventionally filtered tanks. Interestingly, I've had most problems with algae after 2-week holiday trips when feeding went from twice daily to once every two days. This reduction of food, and thus nitrogen supply, possibly stunted plant growth giving algae a chance.

People have asked me if they could just remove their filter and trust the plants would be adequate. If you have a well-planted tank with good plant growth and ideally also floating plants the answer is probably yes. But with aquariums I am always in favour of gradual change so processes in the tank have time to adjust. So I would recommend to just reduce the amount of bacterial filter substrate bit by bit during your monthly filter cleaning until nothing is left. If you like the circulation provided by the pump you can keep it going or you can replace it by a small internal circulation pump that takes only a few watts.

Although circulation is generally considered a good thing, I have actually started to use increasingly less flow and several of my tanks have no circulation or airstone at all. This is not because I think less flow is better for plants or general tank health, but because my dwarf cichlids come from the margins of small forest streams and "puddles" where there is limited or no current. I am now searching for very low-flow pumps, just enough to distribute heat from the heater and facilitate oxygen exchange at the water surface. Originally I thought I needed substantial agitation to break up the formation of an oily surface film but now that I have high coverage of floating plants those films no longer form either.
I just had a discussion on an apistogramma facebook group about the wisdom of not having circulation due to its stimulation of oxygenation. My main answer was that my fish show no behavioural signs of needing more oxygen and I have had 10 spawns in the past two months. So apparently it is not a problem. One contributing factor may be that in my tanks there is no oxygen drain by the bacterial filter and I use plain sand, without dirt, in most of my tanks so there is also no decomposing organic matter in the dirt layer. Most of my tanks are also shallow, just 30 cm tall, which gives a higher surface:volume ration. Another factor may be that apistos are relatively tolerant to lower dissolved oxygen levels. I will soon get some pinocchio whiptails that are supposed to require higher oxygenation levels and if observation indicates they need more oxygen I will increase circulation for that tank.
 
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