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Iron deficiency or Chlorosis?

RohanC

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15 Oct 2015
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Is the pale greenness due to iron deficiency or chlorosis?
 

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Hi Rohan, below is information is from James' Planted Tank theplantedtank.co.uk I highlighted the symptoms of iron deficiency in red. Hope this helps.
Jim

Plant Deficiencies

Nutrient deficiencies tend to affect high light and high CO2 tanks more as the plants use up available nutrients quicker. It is very hard to measure a lot of the nutrients which is why the Estimative Index method of dosing works so well by providing all of them to a small excess. Even so there are times when something is not quite right with some or all of the plants. Trying to identify which nutrient is lacking can be a difficult process at times as one deficiency can mask a different one. The first thing to look for is whether the deficiency is affecting new leaves or old leaves. Plant nutrients are considered to be mobile or immobile. Mobile nutrients can be reclaimed from old leaves and used to produce new growth, so problems will show mainly in old leaves. Immobile nutrients cannot be moved from the older leaves and so new growth is then affected.
The following table provides a good starting point to identifying plant deficiencies but be aware that with high light not everything is quite so straight forward. For example limiting nitrogen or phosphorus is supposed to effect old leaves, but I have found the opposite to be true in that new growth can sometimes be stunted. This is possibly due to the faster uptake of nutrients under high light.



Element Leaves Symptom
Boron New Dead shoot tips and side shoots
Delicate stems
Similar to calcium deficiency
Calcium New Distorted leaf growth
Twisted and short roots
Yellow leaf edges
Carbon Dioxide New Slow growth
Distorted leaf growth
Possibly calcium deposits on leaves
Copper New Dead leaf tips
Iron New Pale growth of new leaves
Leaves can become brittle
Yellowing of leaves
Magnesium Old Yellow patches with veins remaining green
Similar to iron as it prevents plant from absorbing iron
Distorted leaf growth
Manganese New Dead yellowish tissue between leaf nerves
Molybdenum Old Yellow spots between leaf nerves
Brown edges
Inhibited flowering
Nitrogen Old Stunted growth
Leaves turn yellow and die off
Slight reddening of leaves on occasions
Phosphorus Old Stunted growth
Darker leaves
Poor root growth
Potassium Old Pinholes appear which slowly enlarge
Yellow patches
Curling leaves
Stunted growth
Sulphur New Leaves turn yellow and die off
Zinc Old Yellowish areas between nerves starting at the edges


I haven't included light in the table as it is not really a nutrient in the true sense of the word. It does however play an important part in plant growth. Poor light will create spindly plants with small leaves. Leaves often fall off towards the bottom leaving it bare.


This page was last updated 13th September 2007
 
Poor light will create spindly plants with small leaves.
No this is not true. I use poor light lots of times and I never have spindly growth.
Leaves often fall off towards the bottom leaving it bare.
No, this isn't true either.

Poor CO2 and poor flow/distribution causes both of these symptoms.

And no, light is never a nutrient in any sense of the word. Light is an engine and nutrients are the fuel.

Cheers,
 
You have BGA on lower leaves so a sure sign of very poor CO2 levels/distribution for your light level.
 
No this is not true. I use poor light lots of times and I never have spindly growth.

No, this isn't true either.

Poor CO2 and poor flow/distribution causes both of these symptoms.

And no, light is never a nutrient in any sense of the word. Light is an engine and nutrients are the fuel.

Cheers,

Doesn't light affect a plant's appearance like the size of its leaves for example? Aren't there plants for which more light is essential?
 
No this is not true. I use poor light lots of times and I never have spindly growth.

No, this isn't true either.

Poor CO2 and poor flow/distribution causes both of these symptoms.

And no, light is never a nutrient in any sense of the word. Light is an engine and nutrients are the fuel.

Cheers,
Ceg what you think is the cause of this paleness?

Sent from my XT1022 using Tapatalk
 
Reading up on many Amano set ups and George Farmer in the example of stem plants mainly the dropping off of lower leaves they seem to conclude its largely a cosmetic issue( unless theres a obvious deficiency) due especially in Amano were heavy planting shades them and he cultivates them to grow bushy.Nature Aquariums are so heavily planted and with all the hardscape CO2 distribution would be an issue(?)Using hardscape wood rock to hide lower stems.So fertilsation is very important
 
Hi all,
Yes but in that case light can never be a limiting factor. Is this possible?
Yes light can definitely be limiting. Every plant will have a <"light compensation point" (LCP)>, where photosynthesis and respiration are balanced, if the light level doesn't reach the LCP in a leaf, then that leaf will be shed. Because you have green leaves lower down the plant I don't think it is a light issue.
Iron - New Pale growth of new leaves
Is the pale greenness due to iron deficiency or chlorosis?
Chlorosis is a symptom rather than a separate condition, but it is quite likely to be iron (Fe) deficiency. As "banthaman.jm" quotes iron isn't mobile within the plant and causes chlorosis in the new leaves, this is due to problems with chlorophyll synthesis.

You can discount magnesium (Mg), nitrogen (N) or potassium (K) deficiencies, all of which causes chlorosis because all these elements are mobile within the plant and would effect older leaves first. If you have very hard water chlorosis is more likely to appear, due to interference in uptake because of the high level of Ca++ ions.

You could add some more iron in a chelated form, I always use FeEDTA, but other chelators are better at higher pH values. If it is iron deficiency, the pale leaves won't green up, but anew leaves will be normally coloured.

akzonobel_fig1_fig_2_origina_500lpx_tcm47-91935-jpg.1379.jpg


cheers Darrel

.
 
Yes but in that case light can never be a limiting factor. Is this possible?
Yes, any factor involved in growth can become limiting. That is undeniable.
In our experience however, the minimum required level of lighting is almost NEVER reached in our tanks.
By an overwhelming majority, the cause of problems with growth or deterioration of plant tissue is poor gas exchange.
There is a deadly combination of poor CO2, which is needed in large quantity in order for the plant to feed itself (plants are about 40% Carbon), and even worse is poor Oxygen, which cause suffocation.

Gases move very slowly in water, about 10,000 time more slowly than when they are in air. So the struggle of a plant being under water has all to do with obtaining the gases they need to breathe and grow. So many people focus solely on light that it has become almost a religion to add more light. In fact adding more light increases the growth rate and therefore increase the rate at which nutrients and gases are needed.

But rate of growth has nothing to do with health. These are two separate issues. There are many tanks where the growth rate of the plants is high but they are unhealthy. There are other conditions where the growth rate is slow but the plants are healthy. Of course there are many conditions in between.

Since gases move slowly in water the only way to mitigate the problem is to move the water so that the gases contained in the water can reach the plants. Because the tank is a closed box, and because there are many obstacles, every tank presents a puzzle in terms of moving the water in an organized fashion to satisfy all the plants.

Ceg what you think is the cause of this paleness?

Here is a general of thumb.If you are dosing nutrients regularly and if the plants still exhibit a nutrient deficiency such as paleness, discoloration or certain types of algal blooms, then it is almost a certainty that flow and distribution of the water is the culprit - at least in the area where the symptoms appear.

In the image in the original post, the plants look fairly healthy. I don't think there is need to panic. The substrate looks clean and there is good color on the plants. The lower leaves are still intact but they are a little grubby. You can give the tank a trim to free up space and improve flow, or you can look at ways to improve flow/distribution. As plants grow their increased mass starts to block flow, so the tank is sometimes a victim of it's own success.

This could be a micronutrient issue, but that looks like brand new Amazonia Aquasoil (or equivalent) and if so this should not be an issue because the sediment is rich in nutrients.

Is that some kind of textured background? I can't quite tell but is so they adversely affect flow.

The Ludwigia also look as if the lower leaves are unhealthy, so there is definitely a flow issue. Generally, faster stem plants are relegated to the back of the tank. If placed in from like you have it then they can cause problems unless kept low by trimming.

I would trim off the healthy tops and discard the bottoms of a lot of the tall plants in front, investigate ways of improving the flow such as removing some filter media, I's add a bit more of every nutrient, but I definitely would not worry too much about the paleness of the P.stelletus for now. We often cause more problems than we solve when we make panic knee-jerk reactions.

Cheers,
 
Hi all,Yes light can definitely be limiting. Every plant will have a <"light compensation point" (LCP)>, where photosynthesis and respiration are balanced, if the light level doesn't reach the LCP in a leaf, then that leaf will be shed. Because you have green leaves lower down the plant I don't think it is a light issue. Chlorosis is a symptom rather than a separate condition, but it is quite likely to be iron (Fe) deficiency. As "banthaman.jm" quotes iron isn't mobile within the plant and causes chlorosis in the new leaves, this is due to problems with chlorophyll synthesis.

You can discount magnesium (Mg), nitrogen (N) or potassium (K) deficiencies, all of which causes chlorosis because all these elements are mobile within the plant and would effect older leaves first. If you have very hard water chlorosis is more likely to appear, due to interference in uptake because of the high level of Ca++ ions.

You could add some more iron in a chelated form, I always use FeEDTA, but other chelators are better at higher pH values. If it is iron deficiency, the pale leaves won't green up, but anew leaves will be normally coloured.

View attachment 78429

cheers Darrel

.
Thanks a lot for these infos. Tank water is hard so this could be an issue. Dosed a bit more iron yesterday and today saw a bit better condition. Too early to say it's improving though. Will keep an eye on this.

Sent from my XT1022 using Tapatalk
 
Yes, any factor involved in growth can become limiting. That is undeniable.
In our experience however, the minimum required level of lighting is almost NEVER reached in our tanks.
By an overwhelming majority, the cause of problems with growth or deterioration of plant tissue is poor gas exchange.
There is a deadly combination of poor CO2, which is needed in large quantity in order for the plant to feed itself (plants are about 40% Carbon), and even worse is poor Oxygen, which cause suffocation.

Gases move very slowly in water, about 10,000 time more slowly than when they are in air. So the struggle of a plant being under water has all to do with obtaining the gases they need to breathe and grow. So many people focus solely on light that it has become almost a religion to add more light. In fact adding more light increases the growth rate and therefore increase the rate at which nutrients and gases are needed.

But rate of growth has nothing to do with health. These are two separate issues. There are many tanks where the growth rate of the plants is high but they are unhealthy. There are other conditions where the growth rate is slow but the plants are healthy. Of course there are many conditions in between.

Since gases move slowly in water the only way to mitigate the problem is to move the water so that the gases contained in the water can reach the plants. Because the tank is a closed box, and because there are many obstacles, every tank presents a puzzle in terms of moving the water in an organized fashion to satisfy all the plants.



Here is a general of thumb.If you are dosing nutrients regularly and if the plants still exhibit a nutrient deficiency such as paleness, discoloration or certain types of algal blooms, then it is almost a certainty that flow and distribution of the water is the culprit - at least in the area where the symptoms appear.

In the image in the original post, the plants look fairly healthy. I don't think there is need to panic. The substrate looks clean and there is good color on the plants. The lower leaves are still intact but they are a little grubby. You can give the tank a trim to free up space and improve flow, or you can look at ways to improve flow/distribution. As plants grow their increased mass starts to block flow, so the tank is sometimes a victim of it's own success.

This could be a micronutrient issue, but that looks like brand new Amazonia Aquasoil (or equivalent) and if so this should not be an issue because the sediment is rich in nutrients.

Is that some kind of textured background? I can't quite tell but is so they adversely affect flow.

The Ludwigia also look as if the lower leaves are unhealthy, so there is definitely a flow issue. Generally, faster stem plants are relegated to the back of the tank. If placed in from like you have it then they can cause problems unless kept low by trimming.

I would trim off the healthy tops and discard the bottoms of a lot of the tall plants in front, investigate ways of improving the flow such as removing some filter media, I's add a bit more of every nutrient, but I definitely would not worry too much about the paleness of the P.stelletus for now. We often cause more problems than we solve when we make panic knee-jerk reactions.

Cheers,
Thanks a lot Ceg for the vital info and suggestions. Substrate is fluval stratum which is around 2 months old. Previously i had the spraybar and wave maker whose positions weren't good for a good flow. For last 2 week changed their positions and removed the spraybar. Flow is good, infact a bit high causing more surface agitation. Is this good as more gaseous exchange will take place or will it cause loss of co2?

Macro dosing is as per EI and i using Rexolin CXK as micro. I have added 50 gms in 500ml water and dosing 5 ml 3X days alternately and iron 50 gms in 500ml soln and dosing 2 ml 3X days alternately. Is my micro dosing fine?

Sent from my XT1022 using Tapatalk
 
Substrate is fluval stratum which is around 2 months old. Previously i had the spraybar and wave maker whose positions weren't good for a good flow. For last 2 week changed their positions and removed the spraybar. Flow is good, infact a bit high causing more surface agitation. Is this good as more gaseous exchange will take place or will it cause loss of co2?

Macro dosing is as per EI and i using Rexolin CXK as micro. I have added 50 gms in 500ml water and dosing 5 ml 3X days alternately and iron 50 gms in 500ml soln and dosing 2 ml 3X days alternately. Is my micro dosing fine?
Hi,
OK if it the Fluval product then it's just clay or possibly basalt, so nut much in the way of nutrition, but if you are dosing EI then this doesn't matter. Any micro mix and dosing you are using is fine. In any case, this does point to a flow/distribution issue if in fact the paleness is a nutritional issue. It may be due to something else.

Increased surface agitation is good at night but not so good when CO2 is running. As long as you are getting a good pH drop by lights on though then that will be OK.

Cheers,
 
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