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Is this the case of low mg?

Diamondsteve

Diamondsteve

Seedling
Joined
8 Aug 2017
Messages
18
Location
Northamptonshire
Hi first post here though have read lots on here over the last 2 months.

I am having trouble with my plants , they are just not looking like they should nice and lush. Most have dark veins . And also some with pale and holes

I have 180l vision, carbon dioxide pumped in using diy fire extinguisher and being distributed through the internal filter output. Lime green indicator is showing. Also have the new juwel led lighting with sunset timer . 9-10hrs.
I use Ro water .
I use the EI dosing method as follows
Sunday 50liter water change,with 1/2teaspoon Equilibrium

Sunday tues thurs 1/2 KNO3, 1/4 KH2PO4, 1 teaspoonful Epsom salts . 5ml seachem iron ,5ml excel.

Monday Wednesday 5ml seachem flourish

Friday Saturday rest days.

Here are some pics
https://ibb.co/kx516G
https://ibb.co/hhxg6G
https://ibb.co/cVdomG
https://ibb.co/k6euRG
https://ibb.co/fFvvYw
 
Zeus. said:
What's the output of your filter/pumps. Initially sounds like poor CO2 due to low flow/turnover

Sent from Mountolympus via neural interface
Click to expand...

With the internal filter flowing on high I have a external filter ehiem pro 2 . I think altogether 1100l an hour
 
Hi all,
Diamondsteve said:
Most have dark veins . And also some with pale and holes
783_F8_DFE_C7_B8_45_B1_A0_AA_712141_B67653.jpg
Click to expand...
Welcome.

That is classic chlorosis, is your water is hard and calcium rich? After this stage you will get a progressive paling of the tissue, because these elements are required by the plant to synthesise chlorophyll.

If you have a floating plant? And it shows the same symptoms? That allows you to exclude CO2 as a cause, because of access to 400ppm atmospheric CO2. I'm a low tech tank keeper, but you can always use a <"floating plant as an indicator of nutrient status"> (look at Timon's Amazon Frogbit).

The two most likely causes are a deficiency of magnesium (Mg) or of iron (Fe). Although they both produce similar symptoms on the plants, there is a difference in the way that the leaves are effected.

Magnesium is mobile within the plant, and deficiencies occur in older leaves, because the plant can move the element to the new tissue that is receiving the most light. Iron shows a different pattern of deficiency, because it is not mobile within the plant and deficiencies occur in younger leaves.

Because the new growth on the Hygrophila looks pale, and that suggests iron, but the Cryptocoryne interveinal chlorosis looks more like magnesium deficiency.

You can add some more Epsom Salts, it won't do any harm even if you have enough, and you should get a quick greening response.

I might also try a different chelator, <"Seachem Iron"> isn't very good in hard water, the iron is complexed as "ferrous" (ferric) gluconate, and will quickly go out of solution in hard water.

cheers Darrel
 
Thanks for your reply Darrel . Answering your question I did have floating frogbit and the new leaves were yellow and had brown marks on them. The ro water is hard Infact I think it’s about 140-200ppm

Do I double the equilibrium after water change ? I will double the epson salts
 
Darrel does know his stuff. I would listen to his advise.
The tank flow may also be a factor, dependant on your filters inlet/return positioning and what filter media you are using, plus how clean the media is. The general guideline for a CO2 tank is X10 tank volume to pump/filter output, which you are a little on the low side, it's not a set in stone rule as there are many factors to consider. So something to consider IMO

Sent from Mountolympus via neural interface
 
Hi all,
Diamondsteve said:
the new leaves were yellow and had brown marks on them
Click to expand...
OK that definitely sounds like iron deficiency and allows us to discount it only being a CO2 issue.
Diamondsteve said:
The ro water is hard Infact I think it’s about 140-200ppm
Click to expand...
Sorry I should have seen it was RO water from your original post. Is that 140- 200ppm TDS in the tank? or is that before it goes through the RO unit?

Because you are starting with RO it becomes more interesting.

If you have hard tap water? You can stop using the "Seachem Equilibrium" all together and just cut your RO with some tap. You are already supplying magnesium (Mg) and potassium (K), and a small volume of hard tap water (CaCO3 hardness) will supply both calcium and dKH.

Micro-nutrient deficiency also becomes a possibility, you can use the <"Seachem - Flourish Trace"> as a source, but a much cheaper option is a micro-nutrient mix from <"one of our sponsors">.

Plants need <"all the elements required for growth">, but some of them in very small amounts.

cheers Darrel
 
Just did a gh test . Ro brought from store is 50-100pm . My tank 200-400ppm ‍♂️. Tap which i do not use is same 200-400ppm. There is no tap water in my tank because I want to keep it stripped back and add only what’s needed. But for some reason something is making my tank water very hard . Like brackish hard!
 
Hi
Looking at your dosing regime I find two faults.One being not adding Excel on daily basis as it wears of in 24 hours.And second and more important is that U adding your iron with your macros instead of the micros.U have good chance of the Iron and PO4 reacting and being plant unavailable.I will change your RO water source as it shold be 0 ppm tds when U get it.
Give us a full tank shot and more info about substeate and hardscape ...it is possible to get tds increase due to them.
200-400 tds water in high tech full EI dosed tank is not that bad tbh.I had mine in 300-350 when had high tech tanks with tap water.
Regards Konsa
 
Thanks konsa didn’t know all that. I will change the days of iron to traces days , I now have csm+b. And add excel every day (Didn’t think I needed to with having gas). TBH the Ro from store goes light green in the test tube after one drop so I think it must be 0.

Ok so stop using equilibrium . How much tap water do I add if I am putting in 50l of Ro?
 
Hi
Dosing Equilibrium doesn't do any harm apart from being an extra cost.Tbh water parameters unless in some drastic cases doesn't really matter about plant growth.If U plan on keeping some wild caught or breed some fish with specific requirements its just a hassle trying to chase some ideal water values.What is your water of of the tap like?U can get that info from the water report in most cases.Focus on good frow and distribution and availability of nutrients (macro, micro and CO2)and U will have much more easy life and time to enjoy your tank.
Some folk have the tendency of overcomplicating things by trying to control every little bit .
Regards Konsa
 
https://ibb.co/hQGWQb

That’s a picture of the tank konsa. After doing a water change I can see a smokey film in the inside glass?

My tap water is very hard konsa. Will use ro from now on. The question is what’s making the water hard so my macro and micros don’t do anything?
 
Hi
Dont know about the smokey film and what that is indicating.
The macro and micro does work on hard water too.It is just a case of choosing the right product as some chelators in the micros are a bit unstable under hard water conditions as Darrel suggested before and U get usually Iron and PO4 reacting and forming insoluble compounds which plants can't use.I also will second Darrel about Iron defficiency U may have there.The Iron U have can be chelated using EDTA and the better option for U will be to have Fe DPTA or Fe EDDHA but they are more expensive but more stable in solution.
Your hardness could be increasing from stones or substrate that's why I ask about front tank shot and more details about hardscape materials used.
I have seen some test kit strips measuring hardness in ppms but I always in past used liquid tests that measured hardness in german degrees and someone may get confused U are talking about TDS(Total dissolved solids) when U gave your hardness reading in ppms.I dont actually know how to convert the measurements U give to german degrees as never had to before.Google may be usefull.
When U get RO it shold be 0ppm TDS with no KH or GH.Then U need to add some KH and GH as nothing lives in pure RO.U can use KH+and GH+ products or cut with tap .U need KH at least 4dKH for high tech to buffer your PH or due to CO2 injection it is easy to crash it.About general hardness 6-8dGH should be ok in my opinion.
I have never had to use RO so someone else will have to advise how much tap water U need to add to your RO.
Regards Konsa
 
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Hardscape is caribsea substrate with black lava rock with driftwood . Also have the juwel fake wall background here’s the link to my tank pic
https://ibb.co/hQGWQb

I use seachem iron which says use 5ml per 200l per every other day . Started using last week .

It’s like I am adding the right things but not enough
 
Hi
Usually the iron in your micro mix is enough on its own unless U are aiming in boosting some red colours but using Dry powders and DIY ferts is sometimes tricky in hard water as many use Fe EDTA chelator as cheapest and is just not stable enough.In your case U are suplementing with extra iron from Seachem but it looks like as U shot yourself in the foot choosing that product as Darrel says(and he knows his stuff) it is "ferrous" ferric gluconate which is even more unstable in hard water.
Don't get furstrated (God I know is frustrating when U give all U have and is not working as it should) it may be really just the case of getting different kind of products better siuted for your water and needs.
U will be better swapping the Seachem iron for a TCN one as TCN uses Fe DTPA or try to source a Fe DTPA or better Fe EDDHA powders and mix your own solution. These chelators work better in hard water.
As far as your substrate and hardscape is concerned it should not be increasing your hardness .
What test kit are U using?As there is always doubt how accurate they are being influenced by many things hence why I dont bother anymore.
Regards Konsa
 
Diamondsteve said:
After doing a water change I can see a smokey film in the inside glass?
Click to expand...

If the set up is new that sounds like some brown diatom algae which will reduce as the tank matures. Looking at the substrate it appears to be inert (can't speak for the lava rock though) it does contain some calcium which may harden water slightly. Was looking at @George Farmer review of the substrate and it does mention "Some reports of varying water chemistries initially" although it doesn't go into depth of which parameter was varying.

I would check the person you get your RO off and make sure they are not re-mineralising the RO water before they give it to you and tell them you want it pure if they are. Like mentioned if they are then you add equilibrium its getting hardened twice. If they say they are not you are getting ripped as pure RO should have little to nothing of anything in.

To cut your tapwater with pure RO its a simple case of taking the average once you've measured the tapwater so for arguments sake lets say you find your tapwater is 12dgh and presuming your RO is 0 if you mixed 10ltrs RO with 10ltrs of Tap you would get (10x12=120 + 10x0=0 =120) divided by 20 = 6dgh

Diamondsteve said:
I use seachem iron which says use 5ml per 200l per every other day . Started using last week .
Click to expand...

As Darrel has mentioned, Iron can be present in the aquarium in two different forms, one the plants can use and one that they can't although the iron is still there. In hard water the iron quickly turns the iron into the form plants can't use. To combat this manufacturers use a chelating agent which keeps the Iron in plant available form for as long as possible while the plants use it. Seachem Iron isn't very good at this and quickly turns into non available iron hence you "It’s like I am adding the right things but not enough" you are adding the right stuff but its turning into the wrong stuff in the tank.

That's not to say now you have chelated iron you can't keep your water fairly high, many people run hard water tanks using their tapwater but they have to choose their iron supplements carefully or soften the water. Once your water is softer you should find your iron is being utilised by the plants better and for EI type dosing you could up the magnesium as well which should sort the chlorosis issues whether they are iron or magnesium. EI for magnesium is about 10ppm weekly which in a 180ltr tank is about 18grams or 3 heaped teaspoon.
 
Ok
Konsa said:
U will be better swapping the Seachem iron for a TCN one as TCN uses Fe DTPA or try to source a Fe DTPA or better Fe EDDHA powders and mix your own solution. These chelators work better in hard water.
As far as your substrate and hardscape is concerned it should not be increasing your hardness .
What test kit are U using?As there is always doubt how accurate they are being influenced by many things hence why I dont bother anymore.
Regards Konsa
Click to expand...

Can you link me to a place online which sells this right iron that I need for hard water
 
I’ve brought the tnc iron.

Can you give me a recommendation on how much to use and how many times a week. For a 180l tank . 40% water change with ro on sundays. Also during dry salts EI dosing
 
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