It was all going so well

[tankN00b]

So, having set this tank up at the beginning of the year and successfully riding out early algae issues to get to a consistent clean state, my plants now seem to be unhappy.

90l superfish scaper 90 tank with lights set to max. 45% at peak (following sun-up to sun-down intensity chart for tropics over 12 hours)
EI dosing for 100l using the DIY kit from aquariumplantfood.co.uk, as directed from the bottles (20ml / 100l)
Injected CO2 (comes on 3 hours before to get a green drop-checker and then stays green throughout lights on)

Up until recently all plants were very healthy and I had the lights on much lower (maybe 30% max). Then as summer ended my repens started to yellow at the edges, including new growth, with the old leaves starting to die. I figured this might be a reduction in ambient light due to the time of year, so increased the light. Having been dosing for 50l previously (I wasn't CO2 injecting with the lights low, I was using liquid CO2), I doubled the dose to 100l and bit the bullet and went for injected CO2, which was something I'd been meaning to do for a while.

The extra light seems to have just triggered more algae, which in unsurprising given how unhappy the plants are and nothing seems to be bringing them round.

Testing for nitrates, I seem to be consistently in the 20ppm range, which is still safe for fish, and I was supposing that the EI routine I'm doing should supply all that was necessary, but it appears not.

If anyone's got 5 minutes to assist, I'd be most grateful!

And finally, what the tank looked like until quite recently...

Thanks!

 

[X3NiTH]

Your not feeding the plants enough for the extra light demands. They are showing signs of deficiency (probably multiple) especially Magnesium, it would be worth adding extra to the tank especially if your water source is low or devoid of magnesium. I would add at least 5ppm extra of Magnesium to the tank every waterchange just to make sure it’s always present.

 

[MichaelJ]

DIY kit from aquariumplantfood.co.uk

Is it the EI Stater 1 Kit?

 

[tankN00b]

Is it the EI Stater 1 Kit?

Ei Starter 1 Kit with Bottles - Starter Kits - Dry Chemicals - Fertilisers <--- yeah, this one

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

..........EI dosing for 100l using the DIY kit from aquariumplantfood.co.uk, as directed from the bottles (20ml / 100l)
Injected CO2

Up until recently all plants were very healthy and I had the lights on much lower (maybe 30% max). Then as summer ended my repens started to yellow at the edges, including new growth, with the old leaves starting to die......Testing for nitrates, I seem to be consistently in the 20ppm range, which is still safe for fish............
Thanks!

It looks to be nutrient issue.

Plant growth is <"like an assembly line">, adding more of any nutrient doesn't help if that nutrient isn't the one that is limiting plant growth.

I don' t test for NO3, it isn't that I don't want to know the level of nitrate, but measurement <"is problematic"> and <"nitrate isn't toxic"> for fish health until <"you get to very high levels">.

Your not feeding the plants enough for the extra light demands. They are showing signs of deficiency (probably multiple) especially Magnesium, it would be worth adding extra to the tank especially if your water source is low or devoid of magnesium. I would add at least 5ppm extra of Magnesium

Agreed I'd also add <"some iron (Fe) as well">.

Cheers Darrel

 

[MichaelJ]

Ei Starter 1 Kit with Bottles - Starter Kits - Dry Chemicals - Fertilisers <--- yeah, this one

Ok, yeah that only yields about 4 ppm of Mg per week based on 3 x 20 ml for a 100L tank - as far as I can tell. Not much, but as said above your algae problems are likely caused by a multitude of factors. ferts, light and especially CO2 application.

Hard to tell what your actually getting from this kit other than what can be deduced from the Macro amounts.

 

[John q]

Hard to tell what your actually getting from this kit other than what can be deduced from the Macro amounts.

Assuming the op is following the recommended mixing directions 60ml p/w would yield.

Element	ppm/degree
Mg	4.02
S	5.31
dGH	0.93

Element	ppm/degree
NO3	22.24
N	5.02
K	14.02

Element	ppm/degree
PO4	5.21
P	1.7
K	2.15

These figures could be a bit out, it's based on rotala butterfly.
Another thing worth considering is the op's location ( which could be incorrect) London tap water isn't void of nutrients.

on)

Up until recently all plants were very healthy and I had the lights on much lower (maybe 30%

Then as summer ended my repens started to yellow at the edges, including new growth, with the old leaves starting to die. I figured this might be a reduction in ambient light due to the time of year, so increased the light.

Step forth the pantomime villan... Boooooo...

EI dosing for 100l using the DIY kit from aquariumplantfood.co.uk, as directed from the bottles (20ml / 100l)

I'm assuming you dose this 3x per week?

Not the popular answer but lower the light intensity, have a look at the flow around the tank and maybe add a bit more magnesium and iron just to cover all the bases.

 

[foxfish]

If only you had not turned the lights up! Your tank with lower lighting looked really nice and healthy.

 

[tankN00b]

Haha - to be clear - I turned the lights up after it started looking like this. Misguided, but I was convinced I was providing enough fertilisers due to the dosing and I'd just added injected CO2. The lights will get reduced again now that I know it's not that 👍

My dosing to date has been based on the advice on the bottles:
"Macro 3x 20ml a week for 100l tank"
"Micro 3x 20ml a week for 100l tank"

Looking at Planted Tank Nutrient Dosing Calculator for CSM, bumping my Micro nutrients up to 25ml (x3 per week) should see the Iron up to 0.7ppm, which should be more than enough?

The Macro instructions on the fert kit state:

• 500ml / 16.7g (4tsp) Potassium Nitrate KNO3
• 500ml / 4.2g (1tsp) Potassium Phosphate KH2PO4
• 500ml / 25.2g (6tsp) Magnesium Sulphate MgSO4

(Ei Starter 1 Kit with Bottles - Dry Chemicals - Fertilisers)

Plugging those into the fert calculator I get the following for a 3x 20ml/week dosing regime:

Per week that's:
NO3 - 16.23 ppm
K - 12.15ppm
PO4 - 4.65ppm
Mg - 3.93ppm

I guess, confirming what everyone's said above, these figures look low, with the exception of phosphate. I'll perhaps double dose with 3x 40ml/week of the macro and see how this works in conjunction with reduced lights and the CO2 now being there.

Thanks for your help!

 

[erwin123]

Per week that's:
NO3 - 16.23 ppm
K - 12.15ppm
PO4 - 4.65ppm
Mg - 3.93ppm

I guess, confirming what everyone's said above, these figures look low, with the exception of phosphate. I'll perhaps double dose with 3x 40ml/week of the macro and see how this works in conjunction with reduced lights and the CO2 now being there.

Maybe I'm being a bit contrarian here, but those numbers don't look 'low'? I am dosing a similar amount per week via APT EI (2.5ml daily into 100litre tank) which is basically double what APT Complete contains.
NO3 16ppm
K 17.5ppm
PO4 5.25ppm
Mg 7ppm (i.e. I add Epsom Salts)


I find it hard to believe that this amount of nutrients is leading to a nutrient deficiency as opposed to the traditional villains:
(1) poor tuning of Co2
(2) inadequate flow (especially to substrate level)
(3) build up of organic waste <--- since I am using very old aquasoil, I think I have higher than average levels of such waste, so I've moved from 50% to 60% water changes to see if it makes a difference)

 

[MichaelJ]

Maybe I'm being a bit contrarian here, but those numbers don't look 'low'? I am dosing a similar amount per week via APT EI (2.5ml daily into 100litre tank) which is basically double what APT Complete contains.

The 4 ppm of Mg is pretty low.. But I agree otherwise, the numbers should be fine. A big unknown here as well is what kind and amounts of traces this so-called EI Kit are providing - especially Iron? as noted by @dw1305 above...

Some of these companies should be more principled and transparent about what they put into their fertilizer - especially when they invoke (leverage) the Estimative Index dosing scheme. It's somewhat disqualifying, to claim EI without providing a concise guaranteed analysis of what your tank get from the recommended dosing.

I find it hard to believe that this amount of nutrients is leading to a nutrient deficiency as opposed to the traditional villains:

Yes, It's likely a combination.

(1) poor tuning of Co2

Yes!

(2) inadequate flow (especially to substrate level)

Yes!

(3) build up of organic waste <--- since I am using very old aquasoil, I think I have higher than average levels of such waste, so I've moved from 50% to 60% water changes to see if it makes a difference)

Yes!

Cheers,
Michael

 

[tankN00b]

So the injected CO2 is new. Before that I was "successfully" using liquid CO2, but when the plants started to discolour I decided to move to gas. (Yes, I'm aware that they probably have up trying to get the CO2 I was putting in, which is why I went to gas )

The trace elements are these - Chelated Trace Elements - Fertilisers

Fe 8.2% (EDTA Chelated)
Mn 1.82% (EDTA Chelated)
Zn 1.16% (EDTA Chelated)
B 1.05%
Cu 0.23% (EDTA Chelated)
Mo 0.15%

They're quite up front about what's in them, it's just not listed in the kit bundle.

Tank flow hasn't changed and I'm using an old Ehiem Pro II on a 90l tank, which should be more than enough?

 

[PARAGUAY]

Assuming what @erwin123 said you could try a couple of drop checkers around the tank to see if nutrient/co2 flow is not the problem

 

[foxfish]

aquariumplantfood have been around for many years and their starter kit has been used by hundreds if not thousands of forum members.
There may be a few discussion threads about the starter kit but generally speaking I think it works as the majority of people have had great success using their formula and dosing recommendations.

 

[tankN00b]

Ok, given the various advice above, I'll tune in the CO2, reduce the lights and start adding some Epsom salts to increase the Mg.

Thanks again

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Fe 8.2% (EDTA Chelated)

should see the Iron up to 0.7ppm, which should be more than enough?

Iron (Fe) is a bit of a strange one. Because many iron compounds <"are insoluble"> we can only supply iron via a "chelate" and the most usual one of these is the <"FeEDTA"> in your mix.

Even iron chelated with EDTA may be unavailable at high pH levels, where <"another chelator may be required">.

The good news is that iron deficiencies are easy to diagnose because they effect <"new growth">.

cheers Darrel

 

[MichaelJ]

Iron (Fe) is a bit of a strange one.

It really is. Available EDTA Iron seems to fall off a cliff at even moderate pH levels.

From this thread.

My pH is around 7.2-7.4... I am currently dosing around 0.85 - 1.0 ppm per week of EDTA Fe (up from about 0.55ppm/wk in the past). Still, I am hardly able to register any Fe with the Seachem Iron Test kit (I get a reading somewhere between 0.0 - 0.1 ppm about an hour or two after dosing). On the other hand none of my plants shows any signs of iron deficiency.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[tankN00b]

Yeah, my test kit is giving me 8-8.5ph

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Yeah, my test kit is giving me 8-8.5ph

If your new leaves look pale? Like the <"Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum)"> below?

You may need a different chelator for iron, <"Chempak Sequestered Iron"> is widely available.

The advantage of a floating plant, for <"diagnosing nutrient deficiencies"> is that it has access to atmospheric gases (<"~415 ppm CO2">) and <"first "dibs" on the light">. Once you've <"taken light and CO2 out of the equation"> you are <"just left"> with the <"fourteen mineral nutrients">.

cheers Darrel

 

[erwin123]

Could I ask what are the dosing amounts for Fe EDDHA?

(1) Assuming a 100 litre tank, to add 0.50ppm Fe, I appear to need to dose 0.71g of Fe 7% DTPA or 0.63g of Fe 8% DTPA? (If I have used the IFC Fert calc correctly...)
(2) If I have Fe 7% EDDHA (the IFC only makes reference to DTPA), would the quantity required still be 0.71g? (i.e. does the chelate make a difference to the weight required?)