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Lean dosing pros and cons

plantnoobdude

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17 Mar 2021
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uk
so you couldn't find the sodium molybdate? everything else looks good.
well, i could. but i could only buy ~500g and that was like 20 pounds.... more than the rest of the salts which im not willing to pay. (NH4)6Mo7O24 should work though right?
 

Happi

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15 Jan 2012
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UTAH, USA
well, i could. but i could only buy ~500g and that was like 20 pounds.... more than the rest of the salts which im not willing to pay. (NH4)6Mo7O24 should work though right?
you can use that as well, just take off the "Add 0.9 gram Na2MoO4*2H2O" from the recipe and replace it with "Add 0.615 gram (NH4)6Mo7O24"

I have updated the post #133 and added the NiSO4*6H2O to the list
 
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erwin123

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4 Mar 2021
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Singapore
Vin's AGA presentation is great, I think it was Happi that provided the link to me (others may have also posted the lnik). But I had started off by reading Vin's original Rotala Kill Tank thread and yes, I have gone through every page :) pity some of the photo links are no longer working. Rotala Kill Tank

Regarding the issue of stunting... i have stunted and unstunted stems in my tank at the same time, as well as wrinkled and unwrinkled Ammannia Golden. I can also occasionally stunt Wallichii in my high tech tank through too much fiddling with the parameters while Wallichii grows perfectly normal in my low tech with boring stable parameters 😅
My working thesis is that it is possible for plants to adapt (within a certain range) but sometimes its just luck (or complex interactions).

For example, Happi mentioned that Ammannias will stunt with the Tropica clone formula - but I believe that Tropica dosing is 'low enough' such that even if several stems stunt, there will be some stems that mysteriously do not. (The instagram link showed the user saying that he uses Tropica levels of dosing)

Focus on those stems that do not stunt, propagate them, and you should end up with a whole tank full of stems that can 'accept' Tropica levels of dosing?
 

JoshP12

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8 Dec 2019
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Canada
Vin's AGA presentation is great, I think it was Happi that provided the link to me (others may have also posted the lnik). But I had started off by reading Vin's original Rotala Kill Tank thread and yes, I have gone through every page :) pity some of the photo links are no longer working. Rotala Kill Tank

Regarding the issue of stunting... i have stunted and unstunted stems in my tank at the same time, as well as wrinkled and unwrinkled Ammannia Golden. I can also occasionally stunt Wallichii in my high tech tank through too much fiddling with the parameters while Wallichii grows perfectly normal in my low tech with boring stable parameters 😅
My working thesis is that it is possible for plants to adapt (within a certain range) but sometimes its just luck (or complex interactions).

For example, Happi mentioned that Ammannias will stunt with the Tropica clone formula - but I believe that Tropica dosing is 'low enough' such that even if several stems stunt, there will be some stems that mysteriously do not. (The instagram link showed the user saying that he uses Tropica levels of dosing)
Think you illustrate the concept of localized nutrition: substrate, water (contingent on flow), light.
Focus on those stems that do not stunt, propagate them, and you should end up with a whole tank full of stems that can 'accept' Tropica levels of dosing?
Surely that’s what Tropica does. This is what a lot of people do actually - heard this a few times: “I grow plants I can grow and scape with them”. Others are obsessed with growing every single one 😂.
 
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erwin123

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4 Mar 2021
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Singapore
Pretty amazing IMHO. High light, no CO2... +2 years... would love to know in great details what's going on here... water parameters, dosing etc.

Cheers,
Michael

If it has been running for +2 years with such success, one would expect there to be other 'followers' of the method who are able to reproduce his results with some consistency. I do follow the instagram etc feeds of various aquascapers who follow established methods like Tom Barr (EI) or Dennis Wong (APT Complete+substrate) with success but haven't come across this non-CO2 technique yet.

Otherwise, as Vin Kutty put it in his AGA 2019 presentation, its just that guy in Cedar Rapids....😅
 

Hufsa

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22 Aug 2019
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Norway
would love to know in great details what's going on here...
Maybe not great detail but I found a comment on one of the facebook groups that outlines his setup.
You may have to be a member of the group High-Tech Planted Tanks
I'll take the liberty of posting the text of the comment here:

Sudipta Shaw - Author
I have listed some of the key things about this setup below which all play an integrated role to keep the plants healthy for longer period of time.
I setup this tank on June 16, 2019.
I use remineralized ro-di water, the pH is about 5.75; GH - 5-6 and KH - 0-1. Most plants in the hobby prefer softwater.
I regularly maintain the tank by gently removing the debris from the substrate (Amazonia light) and perform about 40% weekly water change.
I have a decent light (chihiros wrgb2 60cm) which helps as well. I leave the lights on for 7 hours per day (100-55-70% of red-green-blue) including 30 minutes of ramp up and down times during the start and end of photo period.
I am using an all in one liquid fertilizer (ThriveS) which I add 2-3 times a week (2-3 mL every time). I also occasionally insert individual osmocote root balls deep under the substrate below some of the demanding plants.
I have an oversized hob filter (aquaclear 70) for my 20 gal tank which circulates the water pretty efficiently throughout the tank and also provides decent surface agitation. I try to clean the filter every month.
Last but not the least, I don't have a heater in this tank which helps to maintain a relatively lower temperature for most of the year (72-76 F). Higher temperature not only decreases the solubility of gases such as O2 and CO2 but it also increases the metabolism rate of plants. Since there is no pressurized CO2 injection, the availability of already low dissolved CO2 decreases significantly. This along with higher metabolism rate of plants make it very difficult to grow them nicely. I didn't conduct a scientific experiment to prove my last point but I have observed my plants struggling in all of my non-CO2 supplemented tanks (I have 5 various sizes of non-CO2 supplemented tanks) during summer when temperature increases to 80 and sometime even surpasses 80F.
Let me know if you want to know anything else.

Seems like hes doing pretty by-the-book lean non-CO2 from this comment. It does sound like he knows what hes doing though.
Disclaimer: I do not know this person, only saw the tanks on facebook at a passing glance.
 
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JoshP12

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8 Dec 2019
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Canada
Maybe not great detail but I found a comment on one of the facebook groups that outlines his setup.
You may have to be a member of the group High-Tech Planted Tanks
I'll take the liberty of posting the text of the comment here:



Seems like hes doing pretty by-the-book lean non-CO2 from this comment. It does sound like he knows what hes doing though.
Disclaimer: I do not know this person, only saw the tanks on facebook at a passing glance.
High light, lean column, rich substrate (edit: potential varying N source, glut etc — low KH water all this stuff inadvertently influences how the co2 demand on the system is being met). Is also old … 2.5 years of microbiology, adaptations, stability etc.

You can also see HOB positioning favors flow pattern … conscious decisions.
1641905599620.png


It's all there. There's no skimping on potassium. The efficacy of CO2 acquisition. Moderating metabolic rates.
 

Happi

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15 Jan 2012
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UTAH, USA
I was talking to my friend Marian and this is what his opinion is on plant stunting. He also said this is based on his own observations and doesn't have to be 100% correct.
Screenshot_20220111-114137_Messenger.jpg
Screenshot_20220111-114152_Messenger.jpg
 
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erwin123

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4 Mar 2021
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When it comes to all-in-one, my preference is to get whichever is the 'cheapest' (based on the amount of nutrients per ml). In my country APT EI has an ok price so thats my choice. For UK, TNC Complete looks relatively cheap while I understand USA there is Nilocg.

If the All-in-one fert doesn't disclose how much fert they contain, a comparison is impossible, in which case I wouldn't even want to consider it.
 

Happi

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444
Location
UTAH, USA
When it comes to all-in-one, my preference is to get whichever is the 'cheapest' (based on the amount of nutrients per ml). In my country APT EI has an ok price so thats my choice. For UK, TNC Complete looks relatively cheap while I understand USA there is Nilocg.

If the All-in-one fert doesn't disclose how much fert they contain, a comparison is impossible, in which case I wouldn't even want to consider it.
Which information you looking for? Usually they do list their numbers in ppm on back of the Bottle.

Making all in one of your own is very simple, I don't see the reason to purchase any of those listed fertilizer when all in one can be easily made at home.
 

Wolf6

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18 Dec 2014
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Netherlands
Making all in one of your own is very simple, I don't see the reason to purchase any of those listed fertilizer when all in one can be easily made at home.
Laziness. I hated having to take a few minutes to make new ferts instead of 2 mouseclicks and wait a day. Its insane I know. That is the sort of society we are becoming. I'm paying a lot extra to not have that minor hassle, yet I pay it with a smile knowing I wont have to make new ferts at a moment that I dont really have time for it (which to be fair is always since I hate doing it).
 

erwin123

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Laziness. I hated having to take a few minutes to make new ferts instead of 2 mouseclicks and wait a day. Its insane I know. That is the sort of society we are becoming. I'm paying a lot extra to not have that minor hassle, yet I pay it with a smile knowing I wont have to make new ferts at a moment that I dont really have time for it (which to be fair is always since I hate doing it).
I have the same sentiments... One bottle a year isn't going to break the bank for me (500ml bottle, 1.2ml a day - probably going down to 1ml a day).

Furthermore, the stock market has been very kind to me in 2021 so I'm ok with spending a bit more for convenience. (globally, stock markets rose by 18.5% while USA and Europe rose by more than 20%. FTSE100 lagged a bit with only a 17.5% gain)
 
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JoshP12

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8 Dec 2019
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Canada
To be honest, if I’m buying ferts, I’m paying for the genius of composition within the system that has been created. I don't base my cars decision on raw materials used - pay for that R n D!
 
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