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Lean dosing pros and cons

I think a one unit pH drop is always about 30 ppm CO2. I'd guess after that the log linear pH ~ CO2 correlation start to break down, but I don't know enough chemistry to actually say.
Yes the relationship is not linear.

But that’s only the beginning. Next is exploring methodology. Folks will often list tank parameters and say their CO2 is at 30 ppm. But is it? Best answer is “maybe”.

There are loads of ways to introduce errors into that equation. Let’s start with measuring dKH. Let’s take an example where someone measures their dKH at 5 and measures their fully degassed pH at 7.6. That would indicate a CO2 concentration of 3.78 which would be reasonable at equilibrium with the atmosphere. So they drop pH to 6.6 and claim they have 30 ppm CO2. The first mistake is that fully degassed water already has some CO2 in it so that actually calculates to 37.8 CO2 ppm..

But let’s say their measurement is off. 99% of folks use a liquid drop kit to measure dKH. If the true dKH is actually 5.7 CO2 would now calculate to 43.09. If the true dKH is 4.1 then CO2 concentration is 31 ppm. Either would be easy to do as we are not measuring down to tenths.

So there’s one variable that can have an effect on how we report CO2 concentration. Next is the methodology of measuring pH. Some folks use test strips or liquid kits that can be off by quite a bit. Using the same example above let’s say that that instead that instead of degassed pH at 7.6 it’s really 7.4 and instead of dropping to 6.6 it’s really 6.8. This is extremely easy to do when using a test kit and deciphering shades of color. Now CO2 concentration would calculate to 23.85.

And it’s even true when using calibrated probes. A long time ago I tested 3 different calibrated pen type pH meters against each other. They all gave different readings. Next best is a higher quality BNC connected type probe. More accurate but still not lab grade equipment.

So the point is many times the reality is that measuring pH drop and dKH are a garbage in garbage out methodology. And when you combine errors in both readings you can begin to see how two people testing the same water could come to wildly different conclusions about their CO2 ppm. So when someone says my CO2 is at 30 ppm, most times they really have no idea if that is true or not.

Then you can also bring in other variables which can affect pH. Our tank is not a lab. There are many other forces at play. Source water dKH can change over time, even seasonally in many places. Some municipalities inject things like Sodium Hydroxide to alter pH. And the list goes on. Even a difference in plant mass and CO2 uptake can throw things off.

So then the question is why does it matter? In my experience optimizing CO2 makes every single other thing easier. If you get CO2 right, you have much more leeway as to nutrient dosing, as a wider range will still produce very good results. Folks love to discuss dosing down to the smallest detail. This ratio vs that ratio. Lean vs rich. K must be below NO3. PO4 must be limited. And the list goes on and on. In my experience if you take the time to get CO2 right, these topics become far less important.

So if we can’t trust the CO2 ppm calculation, how do we dial in CO2? First is having a reliably constant flow rate of CO2. Many cheap needle valves drift. Counting bubbles accurately is all but impossible and bubbles are not a uniform measurement. I use a flow meter and even that can have limitations. So the odds of someone’s CO2 ppm being constant is low.

For me the best method is trial and error and patience. Closely observe both fish and plants while dialing in CO2 slowly over a period of time. Plants will provide subtle clues as you get closer to your optimum concentration. If fish show distress time to back it off just slightly. And one thing many don’t consider is that O2 and CO2 are not mutually exclusive. That is you can have and want high levels of each. If you have good surface agitation (O2) you can have higher levels of CO2 without affecting livestock.

I can tell you this. If I see something wonky in my tank, the first thing I do is check and double check CO2 levels. If it’s off I could waste a lot time playing whack-a-mole with ferts when the real issue is something completely different.
 
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let me also add that if you ever feel like you need to change anything with;

Fe 0.4 ( Fe EDTA 0.266 ppm, DTPA Fe 0.133 ppm)
Mn 0.112

I would try to aim for this:
Fe 0.4 ( Fe EDTA 0.266 ppm, DTPA Fe 0.133 ppm)
Mn 0.26

plant seems to enjoy the Fe:Mn ratio that is close to 2:1
 
Fe 8.2 % / 1.603 = 5.115 ppm
then 5.115/0.1 = 51.15
then 5.115/51.15 = 0.1 ppm Fe

Mn 1.82% / 1.603 = 1.135 ppm
then 1.135/51.15 = 0.022 ppm Mn

Zn 1.16% / 1.603 = 0.723
then 0.723/51.15 = 0.014

do the same for others and you will get the ppm

Fe 8.2% 5.115 0.1
Mn 1.82% 1.135 0.022
Zn 1.16% 0.723 0.014
B 1.05% 0.655 0.0128
Cu 0.23% 0.1435 0.0028
Mo 0.15% 0.0936 0.00183


Fe 8.2% 0.1 (additional 0.05 Fe DTPA added)
Mn 1.82% 0.022 (additional 0.02 Mn added)
Zn 1.16% 0.014
B 1.05% 0.0128
Cu 0.23% 0.0028
Mo 0.15% 0.00183

Final:
Fe 8.2% 0.15
Mn 1.82% 0.042
Zn 1.16% 0.014
B 1.05% 0.0128
Cu 0.23% 0.0028
Mo 0.15% 0.00183

if you were to dose 0.4 ppm Fe weekly:

Fe 0.4 ( Fe EDTA 0.266 ppm, DTPA Fe 0.133 ppm)
Mn 0.112
Zn 0.037
B 0.034
Cu 0.0074
Mo 0.0048


this applies to POST #7

Thanks @Happi - this will probably transpire to be a stupid question, but where does the "1.603" come from?
 
Thanks @Happi - this will probably transpire to be a stupid question, but where does the "1.603" come from?
1647274158938.png
 
Hi all,
So there’s one variable that can have an effect on how we report CO2 concentration. Next is the methodology of measuring pH. Some folks use test strips or liquid kits that can be off by quite a bit. Using the same example above let’s say that that instead that instead of degassed pH at 7.6 it’s really 7.4 and instead of dropping to 6.6 it’s really 6.8. This is extremely easy to do when using a test kit and deciphering shades of color. Now CO2 concentration would calculate to 23.85.
Agreed, that is it.

We are back in Donald Rumsfeld territory, too many <"unknown unknowns>. It is partially why <"I don't like pH meters"> or <"dKH" test kits">.

I'm not <"a CO2 user">, but <"one advantage I can see for the drop checker"> is that you can make up the <"4 dKH"> solution <"accurately">, so that takes away <"one source of uncertainty">.

cheers Darrel
 
Hi all,

Agreed, that is it.

We are back in Donald Rumsfeld territory, too many <"unknown unknowns>. It is partially why <"I don't like pH meters"> or <"dKH" test kits">.

I'm not <"a CO2 user">, but <"one advantage I can see for the drop checker"> is that you can make up the <"4 dKH"> solution <"accurately">, so that takes away <"one source of uncertainty">.

cheers Darrel
Yes it takes out one source of uncertainty but again is still far from accurate. Drop checkers have own their problems. It's basically using a liquid pH test to calculate CO2 ppm.

The first problem is that they are lagging indicator and are only showing you what was happening several hours ago. The second goes back to reading colors. How absolute is that reading if we are discerning between shades of blue, green, yellow? In my opinion not very accurate at all. Then you have other things in the tank that could also be affecting pH.

And then the next question is what is the best color? Most people say green. In my tank and the tanks of people I follow in the hobby it's pretty much pure yellow. In the end drop checkers can also lead to false assumptions.
 
Man, is that what is with my tap water? Based on kh alone my water should be 6.9 or 7.0, but it's more like 7.4-7.6. TDS is very low (~60), so I've toyed with trying to acidify the water to increase available CO2, but pH chasing is always highly discouraged.
Are you testing the tank water or the tap? With either how long are you letting it degas and come to equilibrium with atmosphere?
 
Man, is that what is with my tap water? Based on kh alone my water should be 6.9 or 7.0, but it's more like 7.4-7.6. TDS is very low (~60), so I've toyed with trying to acidify the water to increase available CO2, but pH chasing is always highly discouraged.
Well, yes, they add Caustic soda, ( Sodium hydroxide ) to your drinking water to avoid acidic damage to the supply system. Sounds good dunnit?
 
Are you testing the tank water or the tap? With either how long are you letting it degas and come to equilibrium with atmosphere?
All of the above. From the tap, from the tank in the middle of the night, from the tank at the end of the photoperiod, after sitting in a bucket for a few days, it all looks about the same on the API test kit, which I know is not a great way to measure pH to begin with. I am pretty confident in my ability to discriminate colors, but I'd need to do quite a bit of fudging to get to atmospheric levels from the chart as I understand it. I thought this was puzzling and a bit disappointing (at the time I was trying to accumulate CO2 overnight as per Walstad methods, don't @ me), but my plants were growing and I just shrugged it off.

Well, yes, they add Caustic soda, ( Sodium hydroxide ) to your drinking water to avoid acidic damage to the supply system. Sounds good dunnit?
What are the downstream effects of that to our water chemistry besides affecting pH? Just that?
 
For me the best method is trial and error and patience. Closely observe both fish and plants while dialing in CO2 slowly over a period of time. Plants will provide subtle clues as you get closer to your optimum concentration. If fish show distress time to back it off just slightly. And one thing many don’t consider is that O2 and CO2 are not mutually exclusive. That is you can have and want high levels of each. If you have good surface agitation (O2) you can have higher levels of CO2 without affecting livestock.

I’m gonna throw in a little challenge here, if you’ll forgive me, and apologies for being controversial. 😊

I have no doubt this method would work, I feel the need, however, to highlight that it might not be best for all or at least to add a word of caution.

Best method for experienced and knowledgeable hobbyists, maybe.

Happi’s methods are what I would call ‘next level’ ferts.
EI is prescriptive and therefore simple -and it is fairly effective.
Dosing whatever it says on the bottle is also simple but possibly less effective.
Lean Dosing (or just dosing enough) is not simple but can be effective if properly implemented by knowledgable hobbyists.

Your description is ‘next level’ Co2.
Take your off-gassed level, drop your ph by one unit and keep Ph stable throughout photoperiod, is simple (as a theory at least, not always so easy to do) and fairly effective in most cases. (Not foolproof and watching fish for distress always being the caveat with Co2 injection)

Deciding on ur Co2 by evaluating response of plants and fish - not always simple - but can be effective if properly implemented by knowledgeable hobbyists.

A little like Happi and his ferts, to do this, you have to be able to recognise the responses you are looking for. In this case, in both your fish and your plants.
If you get it wrong, your plants may punish you by failing. If you get it badly wrong, your fish may punish you by dying.

You have very clearly said to watch your fish closely and I totally respect that, but there are, as you say, many things that can impact the Co2 in your tank, from dirty filters to biomass levels to flow patterns and a big clear out, for example, may be all it takes to make enough of a change to turn that yellow drop checker lethal.

You need to have a pretty good handle on cause and effect to push Co2 limits, no?

Until you’ve learned that, I’m thinking green seems like a good colour. 😊
 
Until you’ve learned that, I’m thinking green seems like a good colour. 😊
LOL I enjoyed that post, and yes you are correct. My thoughts are in relation to high light tanks packed full of fast growing flowery colorful stems.

Much depends on ones ambition and how deep in the hobby they want to progress. For medium/low light tanks any CO2 is better than none and a green drop checker is fine.

As one progresses they usually start adding more light and more sensitive species. Light is the gas pedal that drives the tank. Turn it up and increase the demand for CO2 and nutrients. At that point keeping CO2 optimized can be the difference between success and failure. Tom Barr has been saying this for years and he is correct.

My main point was that when people say their CO2 is at 30 ppm and is optimized, many times it's not. Getting CO2 truly optimized is complicated and takes time and patience. There are loads of ways to get it wrong and it pays to get it right.

And yes one must always keep the health of the livestock in mind. I've been doing this for years and still to this day only adjust CO2 in small increments on weekends when I can be there and observe. My tank is full of Rainbowfish that take years to mature and color up and they are way too important to me to risk otherwise.
 
Thanks @Happi - this will probably transpire to be a stupid question, but where does the "1.603" come from?
Wookii, am gonna give you a little homework. Try to breakdown the microplex miller's % into ppm using the same method.
 
Wookii, am gonna give you a little homework. Try to breakdown the microplex miller's % into ppm using the same method.

Not interested in homework mate. I’m happy to use a technique that works when I need it, but I like to know why it works, not just use it blindly parrot-fashion. Obviously if you don’t know how the 1.603 is derived, just say so 😉
 
LOL I enjoyed that post, and yes you are correct. My thoughts are in relation to high light tanks packed full of fast growing flowery colorful stems.

Much depends on ones ambition and how deep in the hobby they want to progress. For medium/low light tanks any CO2 is better than none and a green drop checker is fine.

As one progresses they usually start adding more light and more sensitive species. Light is the gas pedal that drives the tank. Turn it up and increase the demand for CO2 and nutrients. At that point keeping CO2 optimized can be the difference between success and failure. Tom Barr has been saying this for years and he is correct.

My main point was that when people say their CO2 is at 30 ppm and is optimized, many times it's not. Getting CO2 truly optimized is complicated and takes time and patience. There are loads of ways to get it wrong and it pays to get it right.

And yes one must always keep the health of the livestock in mind. I've been doing this for years and still to this day only adjust CO2 in small increments on weekends when I can be there and observe. My tank is full of Rainbowfish that take years to mature and color up and they are way too important to me to risk otherwise.

The first scaping forum I ever read was the Barr report and I can certainly recall a tank or two with wet & dry trickle filters for great oxygenation, along with some eye watering light and Co2 levels…..and some stunning results….so I’m getting you.

As a newbie, running my first ever high tech tank, I also think one of the most important things I’ve learnt here is that for long term good results and a happy healthy tank, be patient (ish 😂) and learn to walk before you run. (Especially with Co2)

I think that puts us on the same page…..different paragraphs perhaps. 😂
 
As a newbie, running my first ever high tech tank, I also think one of the most important things I’ve learnt here is that for long term good results and a happy healthy tank, be patient (ish 😂) and learn to walk before you run. (Especially with Co2)
These are true words. Patience is a virtue in this hobby. And there is a learning curve.

When I first got started in the hobby I read where someone said it takes about a year for a newbie to learn how to have a successful tank. I laughed and thought come on how hard can it be? You get a light, some CO2, some ferts, and bam instant underwater garden. I was naïve.

But today people have a big advantage. There are great sources of information out there that can really help. And the fastest path to success is to seek out people who can demonstrate success. Then study their methods. I have found most all to be very generous with their time and knowledge.
 
I’m gonna throw in a little challenge here, if you’ll forgive me, and apologies for being controversial. 😊

I have no doubt this method would work, I feel the need, however, to highlight that it might not be best for all or at least to add a word of caution.

Best method for experienced and knowledgeable hobbyists, maybe.

Happi’s methods are what I would call ‘next level’ ferts.
EI is prescriptive and therefore simple -and it is fairly effective.
Dosing whatever it says on the bottle is also simple but possibly less effective.
Lean Dosing (or just dosing enough) is not simple but can be effective if properly implemented by knowledgable hobbyists.

Your description is ‘next level’ Co2.
Take your off-gassed level, drop your ph by one unit and keep Ph stable throughout photoperiod, is simple (as a theory at least, not always so easy to do) and fairly effective in most cases. (Not foolproof and watching fish for distress always being the caveat with Co2 injection)

Deciding on ur Co2 by evaluating response of plants and fish - not always simple - but can be effective if properly implemented by knowledgeable hobbyists.

A little like Happi and his ferts, to do this, you have to be able to recognise the responses you are looking for. In this case, in both your fish and your plants.
If you get it wrong, your plants may punish you by failing. If you get it badly wrong, your fish may punish you by dying.

You have very clearly said to watch your fish closely and I totally respect that, but there are, as you say, many things that can impact the Co2 in your tank, from dirty filters to biomass levels to flow patterns and a big clear out, for example, may be all it takes to make enough of a change to turn that yellow drop checker lethal.

You need to have a pretty good handle on cause and effect to push Co2 limits, no?

Until you’ve learned that, I’m thinking green seems like a good colour. 😊
I feel you but then you have very often noobs adding 200/300 PAR of light with a green DC and wondering what's going wrong.... or adding ferts once a week, or changing water every 2/3 weeks. The CO2 advice is not just something you do and that's it. It requires adjustment of other parameters sometimes. People have a lot of expectations and hope things will work right out of the box just because they wish so. Ain't happening.
 
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microplex miller

Millers Microplex ? This one. Do you recommend switching to this one for the lean-regime?

As for @Wookii 's homework here it goes:

As the label suggest, If you target 0.4 ppm of Fe

Mg 0.54 ppm
Cu 0.15 ppm
Mo 0.01 ppm
B 0.05 ppm
Mn 0.4 ppm
Zn 0.15 ppm
Co 0.005 ppm

It beats me as well where the 1.603 comes from...

Cheers,
Michael
 
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Not interested in homework mate. I’m happy to use a technique that works when I need it, but I like to know why it works, not just use it blindly parrot-fashion. Obviously if you don’t know how the 1.603 is derived, just say so 😉
Ofcource I do, otherwise why would I use it to begin with? Just apply that number to whatever fertilizer % you are trying to convert into ppm and it will work everytime. That's why I said go do the homework by using Miller microplex or any other fertilizer and see if you get the correct ppm and compare it with calculator like rotalabutterfly.com and you will get your answer.

It's interesting that you just told me I don't know how I derived that number but at the same time i just broken down the percentage into ppm for you and for others. It's rather a simple math but let's just pretend that I don't know how I got there and Thanks for the compliment as well.
 
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