Lean dosing pros and cons

[erwin123]

On the other hand I know dozens and dozens of people who constantly demonstrate success using other methods that are very repeatable.

As a hobbyist, simplicity, convenience and repeatable methods are really important to me.

I am very interested in these experiments where someone with no prior vested interest experiments with different methods and is willing to post regular photos updates so that we can see how the plants respond to the new dosing method.

My feeling, having moved from a richer dosing regime to a leaner regime (simply by adjusting the amount of magic water I add to my tank every day), is that many plants won't care and can adapt to either (as long as you gradually adjust and not simply double or halve your dosing overnight), but there will always be some plants that seem to prefer one over the other.

 

[GreggZ]

As a hobbyist, simplicity, convenience and repeatable methods are really important to me.

I am very interested in these experiments where someone with no prior vested interest experiments with different methods and is willing to post regular photos updates so that we can see how the plants respond to the new dosing method.

My feeling, having moved from a richer dosing regime to a leaner regime (simply by adjusting the amount of magic water I add to my tank every day), is that many plants won't care and can adapt to either (as long as you gradually adjust and not simply double or halve your dosing overnight), but there will always be some plants that seem to prefer one over the other.

Agreed. There is a wide range that works and stability is more important than most realize. In general plants are pretty adaptable.

And also agree that some plants prefer one over the other. I haven't seen one method that makes them all happy yet.

Curious what was your richer vs your lower scheme??

 

[erwin123]

Agreed. There is a wide range that works and stability is more important than most realize. In general plants are pretty adaptable.

And also agree that some plants prefer one over the other. I haven't seen one method that makes them all happy yet.

Curious what was your richer vs your lower scheme??

60cm tank, about 100 litres of water.

2.5ml/day APT EI reduced to currently 0.9ml/day (every week, reduced by 0.2ml.... so this was over 8 weeks). so its slightly below APT Complete levels.

So essentially, I've moved to what is basically the 2hr Aquarist method:
(i) (slightly lower than) APT Complete dosing level
(ii) enriched substrate (Osmocote clones - both types, NPK only, and NPK+trace)
(iii) Gh6, Kh3-4 water.

unfortunately, I run my tank quite a bit warmer at close to 26C due to the weather, and my tank gets morning sun maybe 1hr a day, so I do get GDA algae on the glass which I have to scrape off the glass weekly.

TDS meter /Nitrate tests [for whats it worth] suggest that the ammonia/nitrogen is not leaking out into the water column.

 

[GreggZ]

60cm tank, about 100 litres of water.

2.5ml/day APT EI reduced to currently 0.9ml/day (every week, reduced by 0.2ml.... so this was over 8 weeks). so its slightly below APT Complete levels.

So essentially, I've moved to what is basically the 2hr Aquarist method:
(i) (slightly lower than) APT Complete dosing level
(ii) enriched substrate (Osmocote clones - both types, NPK only, and NPK+trace)
(iii) Gh6, Kh3-4 water.

unfortunately, I run my tank quite a bit warmer at close to 26C due to the weather, so I do get GDA algae on the glass which I have to scrape off the glass weekly.

TDS meter /Nitrate tests [for whats it worth] suggest that the ammonia/nitrogen is not leaking out into the water column.

Thanks and that's interesting. Not surprising something close to APT Complete levels working well. It's a good mix for a wide variety of tanks, especially if you are enriching substrate as well.

And APT EI is not really super rich either. At 14 ppm NO3 weekly it's kind of between rich and lean. More appropriate for densely planted tanks full of stems. Both provide about 15 ppm K which is key.

Curious have you noticed any big differences with the changes??

 

[Hanuman]

Tropica - you know, the plant guys out of Denmark I believe - are pretty prolific growers of aquatic plants ... I would think they would know a thing or two about how to make a fertilizer that actually works very well. Call me naive for thinking so

Sorry I have argue that. If you go down that road then it would probably be fair to think that most companies that produce fertlizer obviously know something or two about plants, yet they all have very different concoctions.

Anyways, @GreggZ, I am convinced @Happi and his cohorts are on to something, and have provided enough convincing evidence over time to make it intriguing enough

Well I'll be blunt. I don't see much evidence other than talking and talking and recipes all over the place. If you call that convincing evidence then fine. To me, convincing evidence would be pictures after picture of full tanks taken month after month. That's the only evidence I am willing to accept. Short of that it's just talking, which is fine as long as magnificent claims aren't made. Also keep in mind this lean thing is nowhere being new. It's been trailing the hobby for years and years and years. So either everyone is brainwashed with rich dosing either something else is wrong.

I can't speak for @Happi obviously, but I think he is trying to move the hobby forward and explore new ways to achieve great results, something we should cherish.

Well that's all good and dandy but let's see actual long term, beautiful results. I think each time a new fert formula or claim or ratio is made and is splashed out in forums it should be accompanied with a picture of a tank for several months see how that goes. That should be a requirement. No matter the regime.

Yes - this one in particular stood out for me - almost 5 times the recommened amount of Specialized and a lot of traces (Premium) weekly, but also very high CO2 levels and plant mass - which of course should be taken into consideration when dosing lean'ish.

Indeed nowhere near "lean". I used to dose my tank with a Tropica DIY formula since we don't have Tropica here. It is slightly different but not far off. Mostly more K.

Thats true, but a lot did, and thats also the point: lots of different approaches will work.

That's not what is being argued. The problem is replicability at larger scale and time and this seems to be avoided over and over again in discussions of lean dosing.
No one, including Tom Barr, Vin, Raj, Dennis and several others I talk to or who often post in forums or any actual botanist in the hobby claims plants need a ton of nutrients. The idea of rich dosing is not because plant need it, it's simply to fill up the possible fert gaps that exist between plant sp. That's it. Nothing more nothing less and is certainly is not because plant need humongous amount of ppm of K, NO3 or PO4. Lean dosing in high tech tanks is all good as long as you have good experience and a good understanding of most plants nutrient uptake. But even then, lean dosing is unpractical specially when you are keeping multiple plant species in a tank that can have a wide range of requirements. That's really the whole issue here. Not really if lean dosing is good or bad per say.

2.5ml/day APT EI reduced to currently 0.9ml/day (every week, reduced by 0.2ml.... so this was over 8 weeks). so its slightly below APT Complete levels.

So essentially, I've moved to what is basically the 2hr Aquarist method:
(i) (slightly lower than) APT Complete dosing level
(ii) enriched substrate (Osmocote clones - both types, NPK only, and NPK+trace)
(iii) Gh6, Kh3-4 water.

Yes I did that last year unintentionally until I started noting deficiencies in my Myriophyllum tuberculatum. The tops turned white and some bucep started showing veining marks. Probably an Fe and trace deficiencies combination. I could be wrong but even actual botanists I asked couldn't tell me with precision the type of deficiency.
This was very progressive and it took a good 8 months to start showing up.

As much as the lean approach has it benefits/advantages environmentally speaking, it also has it drawbacks. The problem with lean is that it implies that one is growing plant species that have similar requirements. That's far from what happens in the hobby, specially in high tech tanks and I think that is where all this antagonism lean vs rich stems from. You can't expect to have/replicate "natural" conditions in a tank where nothing in that tank is natural by definition starting with 25+ sp plants that have no business being together in the same environment. Going lean in tanks like that is like walking on a cable connecting two mountains. Can it be done? Sure but the probability of falling is high.

I don't mind being proven wrong but perhaps if many people with high tech tanks dosing lean (or dosing ferts with complicated ratios and whatnot at cut throat levels) care to post full tank pictures over a certain period of time, it would alleviate this overwhelming trend towards rich dosing. But that's the thing. I don't see many tanks like that. All I see is isolated pictures of plants and tests setups done in specific closed environments down the garage in obscure settings. That's not what aquascaping or growing plants is about. You want to have a nice tank that you can enjoy with the plants that you like growing well not some test tube where you can affirm that a theory works. So if lean dosing works for some that's fantastic but it would be beneficial to the hobby if those individuals posted actual pictures of their high tech tanks with all their fert regime and then perhaps we can all start having some constructive talks. Until then it's all a lot of talking to me and as the say goes, a picture is worth a thousand words.

 

[GreggZ]

Sorry I have argue that. If you go down that road then it would probably be fair to think that most companies that produce fertlizer obviously know something or two about plants, yet they all have very different concoctions.

Well I'll be blunt. I don't see much evidence other than talking and talking and recipes all over the place. If you call that convincing evidence then fine. To me, convincing evidence would be pictures after picture of full tanks taken month after month. That's the only evidence I am willing to accept. Short of that it's just talking, which is fine as long as magnificent claims aren't made. Also keep in mind this lean thing is nowhere being new. It's been trailing the hobby for years and years and years. So either everyone is brainwashed with rich dosing either something else is wrong.

Well that's all good and dandy but let's see actual long term, beautiful results. I think each time a new fert formula or claim or ratio is made and is splashed out in forums it should be accompanied with a picture of a tank for several months see how that goes. That should be a requirement. No matter the regime.

Indeed nowhere near "lean". I used to dose my tank with a Tropica DIY formula since we don't have Tropica here. It is slightly different but not far off. Mostly more K.
View attachment 185890

That's not what is being argued. The problem is replicability at larger scale and time and this seems to be avoided over and over again in discussions of lean dosing.
No one, including Tom Barr, Vin, Raj, Dennis and several others I talk to or who often post in forums or any actual botanist in the hobby claims plants need a ton of nutrients. The idea of rich dosing is not because plant need it, it's simply to fill up the possible fert gaps that exist between plant sp. That's it. Nothing more nothing less and is certainly is not because plant need humongous amount of ppm of K, NO3 or PO4. Lean dosing in high tech tanks is all good as long as you have good experience and a good understanding of most plants nutrient uptake. But even then, lean dosing is unpractical specially when you are keeping multiple plant species in a tank that can have a wide range of requirements. That's really the whole issue here. Not really if lean dosing is good or bad per say.


Yes I did that last year unintentionally until I started noting deficiencies in my Myriophyllum tuberculatum. The tops turned white and some bucep started showing veining marks. Probably an Fe and trace deficiencies combination. I could be wrong but even actual botanists I asked couldn't tell me with precision the type of deficiency.
This was very progressive and it took a good 8 months to start showing up.
View attachment 185891 View attachment 185892

As much as the lean approach has it benefits/advantages environmentally speaking, it also has it drawbacks. The problem with lean is that it implies that one is growing plant species that have similar requirements. That's far from what happens in the hobby, specially in high tech tanks and I think that is where all this antagonism lean vs rich stems from. You can't expect to have/replicate "natural" conditions in a tank where nothing in that tank is natural by definition starting with 25+ sp plants that have no business being together in the same environment. Going lean in tanks like that is like walking on a cable connecting two mountains. Can it be done? Sure but the probability of falling is high.

I don't mind being proven wrong but perhaps if many people with high tech tanks dosing lean (or dosing ferts with complicated ratios and whatnot at cut throat levels) care to post full tank pictures over a certain period of time, it would alleviate this overwhelming trend towards rich dosing. But that's the thing. I don't see many tanks like that. All I see is isolated pictures of plants and tests setups done in specific closed environments down the garage in obscure settings. That's not what aquascaping or growing plants is about. You want to have a nice tank that you can enjoy with the plants that you like growing well not some test tube where you can affirm that a theory works. So if lean dosing works for some that's fantastic but it would be beneficial to the hobby if those individuals posted actual pictures of their high tech tanks with all their fert regime and then perhaps we can all start having some constructive talks. Until then it's all a lot of talking to me and as the say goes, a picture is worth a thousand words.

I would have been a bit more gentle but I agree with every single thing you said. I've been through more than a decade of these arguments and yet to see any convincing evidence. Still waiting. That is the one constant. Seeing an example of where it works consistently over time would really help the argument.

PO4 is the devil. K is the devil. Micros are the devil. NO3 is the devil.

Funny most of the best plant growers in the world didn't get the memo!

 

[Happi]

"I don't see much evidence other than talking and talking and recipes all over the place. If you call that convincing evidence then fine. To me, convincing evidence would be pictures after picture of full tanks taken month after month. That's the only evidence I am willing to accept."

"Well that's all good and dandy but let's see actual long term, beautiful results. "

"The problem is replicability at larger scale and time and this seems to be avoided over and over again in discussions of lean dosing."

"But even then, lean dosing is unpractical specially when you are keeping multiple plant species in a tank that can have a wide range of requirements. That's really the whole issue here."

"But that's the thing. I don't see many tanks like that. All I see is isolated pictures of plants and tests setups done in specific closed environments down the garage in obscure settings."

"So if lean dosing works for some that's fantastic but it would be beneficial to the hobby if those individuals posted actual pictures of their high tech tanks with all their fert regime and then perhaps we can all start having some constructive talks. Until then it's all a lot of talking to me and as the say goes, a picture is worth a thousand words."

Well, here you have it:

amano nature aquarium world - Google Search

 

[GreggZ]

Dosing high doses of tropica is still no where near EI levels in term of ratio and the type of N being used.

So are you saying that dosing Tropica at 3x or 6x is still lean dosing? And nowhere near EI levels? It sounds more like EI than lean to me. Funny it's the way most of the best tanks in the link above dose their tanks.

Alright I give up. You just can't argue with that logic.

 

[Hanuman]

Well, here you have it:

amano nature aquarium world - Google Search

Again with the condescendence. Not the first time. A google search of nature aquarium world book with basically easy growing and restricted number of spp? A book from 1994. What type of answer is that and how that negates in any way what I said above. Tank concepts have changed pretty dramatically since the 90' and Amano's advent. You omitted the following in the quotes you selectively decided to use:

The idea of rich dosing is not because plant need it, it's simply to fill up the possible fert gaps that exist between plant sp.

But even then, lean dosing is unpractical specially when you are keeping multiple plant species in a tank that can have a wide range of requirements. That's really the whole issue here. Not really if lean dosing is good or bad per say.

The problem with lean is that it implies that one is growing plant species that have similar requirements. That's far from what happens in the hobby, specially in high tech tanks and I think that is where all this antagonism lean vs rich stems from. You can't expect to have/replicate "natural" conditions in a tank where nothing in that tank is natural by definition starting with 25+ sp plants that have no business being together in the same environment.

What about your tanks? Please make a journal so we can all benefit from your formulas in a concrete way. That would probably be the best way to prove your formulas and ratios since you seem to understand the interactions between each nutrient. In fact I am even thinking of adding your formulas in the IFC calculator at some point so that it can be widespread and people can actually test your theories.

 

[erwin123]

Thanks and that's interesting. Not surprising something close to APT Complete levels working well. It's a good mix for a wide variety of tanks, especially if you are enriching substrate as well.

And APT EI is not really super rich either. At 14 ppm NO3 weekly it's kind of between rich and lean. More appropriate for densely planted tanks full of stems. Both provide about 15 ppm K which is key.

Curious have you noticed any big differences with the changes??

Each 5ml per 100L dose adds 5ppm Potassium (K), 4.6ppm Nitrogen (NO3), 1.5ppm Phosphorus (PO4), 0.16ppm Iron (Fe), 0.4ppm Magnesium and additional amounts of Boron (B), Copper (Cu), Manganese (Mn), Molybdenum (Mo) and Zinc (Zn). [APT EI contents - from APT website]

I'm dosing 0.9ml a day which is 6.3ml a week. So basically, I'm dosing 6.3ppm Potassium, 5.8ppm NO3, 1.9ppm PO4 weekly. As I'm not doing DIY, I don't have the flexibility of changing the ratio, but it makes things simpler - I just adjust the quantity until I find a level that seems to work and I'll just stop there. Whereas fiddling with the ratios - you have infinite possibilities so one could be forever adjusting ratios....

I'm also going to admit that I reduced the dosing solely for the benefit of one plant: A. Pedicatella. It appears to be looking better even though 6.3ppm K is higher than "Tropica levels." Though of course those who are dosing Tropica levels may say that their Pedicatella looks better than mine! Anyway, I take a photo every week for my reference and also upload it to my journal

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

As a hobbyist, simplicity, convenience and repeatable methods are really important to me.

My guess is that that is where most people are. We have a number of members who have started high tech, but over time have begun to be disenchanted with the amount of work (and extra cost) it involves and have gone to low tech., we also have a number who's journey has been in the opposite direction.

Personally I want to combine,

• A small environmental footprint with
• relatively low maintenance and
• low expense,

but without compromising on fish health.

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Regarding Urea vs NH4 vs NO3 at 1 ppm N, plant will always grow fastest in NH4 and Urea, you will observe that plant grown under 1 ppm N-NH4 will be 2-3x taller vs plant grown under same 1 ppm N-NO3.

In terms of "fixed nitrogen" (urea (CO(NH2)2), ammonia/ammonium (NH3/NH4+) and nitrate (NO3-)) I think we are in the <"buffet analogy">

........... I think this is right, this time the <"one legged Irishman"> is in the <"all you can eat buffet">, he has run out of ribs, but he is still tucking into the vol-au-vents and he has just alerted his friends that there is free food available........

That's the thing @dw1305 I'm overly confident I have healthy fish and know how to feed them, feeding the plants on the other hand is somewhat of a dark art, hence why I value the opinions of you guys.

Yes I understand that. Having talked to <"proper fish-keepers"> I realise just how good you are at fish husbandry. Personally I'm reasonably good with plants (but only "difficult to kill" ones), but I'm still not very good with fish and I don't see problems arising in a way a better fish-keeper would.

The idea behind the <"Duckweed Index"> was a simple one, plants are good for water quality, so cut through all the technical detail and just give a mechanism to keep plants in active growth.

cheers Darrel

 

[plantnoobdude]

So are you saying that dosing Tropica at 3x or 6x is still lean dosing? And nowhere near EI levels? It sounds more like EI than lean to me. Funny it's the way most of the best tanks in the link above dose their tanks.

Alright I give up. You just can't argue with that logic.

I will not try to put words in Happi's mouth but I think Happi is most concerned about the ratio. if you are dosing say 5ppmN weekly (20ppm No3) you get something like 1ppm po4 and 4ppm K. this is completely different in terms of ratio to EI where you would have 4+ppm po4, 20-30ppm K.. at this point I think we need a better description for Happis dosing, the 'lean' title has brought up conflict a few times even in this thread.

 

[Garuf]

Could dosing more than the recommended dose of tropica be to account for hardwater limiting uptake?

Or is this a ca/mg ratio thing?

 

[GreggZ]

I will not try to put words in Happi's mouth but I think Happi is most concerned about the ratio. if you are dosing say 5ppmN weekly (20ppm No3) you get something like 1ppm po4 and 4ppm K. this is completely different in terms of ratio to EI where you would have 4+ppm po4, 20-30ppm K.. at this point I think we need a better description for Happis dosing, the 'lean' title has brought up conflict a few times even in this thread.

So are you saying that as long as you have the ratio "right" you can dose as much as you want and it's still lean? In the couple of examples above the best tanks I saw were dosing at 3x to 6x the recommended dose. I am just trying to wrap my head around what "lean" means?? Are we really talking about ratios and not lean dosing?

 

[JacksonL]

60cm tank, about 100 litres of water.

2.5ml/day APT EI reduced to currently 0.9ml/day (every week, reduced by 0.2ml.... so this was over 8 weeks). so its slightly below APT Complete levels.

So essentially, I've moved to what is basically the 2hr Aquarist method:
(i) (slightly lower than) APT Complete dosing level
(ii) enriched substrate (Osmocote clones - both types, NPK only, and NPK+trace)
(iii) Gh6, Kh3-4 water.

unfortunately, I run my tank quite a bit warmer at close to 26C due to the weather, and my tank gets morning sun maybe 1hr a day, so I do get GDA algae on the glass which I have to scrape off the glass weekly.

TDS meter /Nitrate tests [for whats it worth] suggest that the ammonia/nitrogen is not leaking out into the water column.

Interesting that we both, without meaning to have arrived at pretty much APT complete dosing levels

 

[plantnoobdude]

So are you saying that as long as you have the ratio "right" you can dose as much as you want and it's still lean? In the couple of examples above the best tanks I saw were dosing at 3x to 6x the recommended dose. I am just trying to wrap my head around "lean" means?? Are we really talking about ratios and not lean dosing?

I think I described a couple different types of dosing that are less than EI. not sure if it was in this thread or another. I guess we could be talking more about ratios. would you consider your dosing rich lean or moderate? I would consider it moderate.

 

[GreggZ]

I think I described a couple different types of dosing that are less than EI. not sure if it was in this thread or another. I guess we could be talking more about ratios. would you consider your dosing rich lean or moderate? I would consider it moderate.

I would consider mine moderate but still based on the EI theory. People throw around the term EI like it's something that is written in stone. It's more of a concept than a directive on dosing amounts. Take APT EI. It's at 15ppm Potassium (K), 13.8ppm Nitrogen (NO3), 4.5ppm Phosphorus (PO4). Not at what most would consider to be true "EI" levels. Yet it is still based on the EI principles.

 

[Zeus.]

People throw around the term EI like it's something that is written in stone

The 'E' is for 'Estimated' after all, 'Lean EI dosing' can still be ferts in abundance, so its still EI, just a lower dose to suit the tank

 

[GreggZ]

The 'E' is for 'Estimated' after all, 'Lean EI dosing' can still be ferts in abundance, so its still EI, just a lower dose to suit the tank

Yes agreed. And very few if any tanks need what most consider true EI. More lightly planted tanks with lower light and easier plants can do well on a fraction of it.