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Lean dosing pros and cons

you mean premium? the micro only one. anyway, I had very good results using tropica fertiliser. can definitely recommend.
Hi @plantnoobdude, No I was actually thinking about Specialized and pick up the extra N (from Urea/NH4 ?), P and K and just lower the Macros (NPK) a bit that I mix in with the WC water. As far as I know the micros/traces content is the same between the two (Specialized vs. Premium). A bad thing about Tropica is that it is harder to come by here in the US and quite expensive, but for the experiment and to get me started I am OK with using Tropica for a while - at least until I amass the necessary motivation to buy all the ingredients to roll my own clone from @Happi's recipe.

I've used Specialized and Premium on and off in the past btw. It was very expensive to use with my two 150 L tanks at much higher than recommended dosing targets (mostly due to my misconceptions at the time, I figure).

Cheers,
Michael
 
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@MichaelJ

I would definitely recommend using good traces over csm+b, unless you get the one I talked about from GLA in one of my post recently. But even then it cannot beat the good trace from Tropica. 0Macros are easy to clone and yes I would certainly recommend trying nh4no3 and urea combination, this would be similar to what Seachem Aqua vitro Nitrogen uses.

Tropica specialised is highly recommended if you can invest into it and you can take a note of why ratio can matter and why the lower K can be a good thing etc.

I apologize about the late response, I got busy with my son and later on ER.
 
Tropica specialised is highly recommended if you can invest into it and you can take a note of why ratio can matter and why the lower K can be a good thing etc.

Thanks @Happi I just ordered a 750 ml Bottle of Specialized from Bensons fishroom out of NY - was $32 including tax and shipping. Not a terrible price - I've paid almost $50 in the past from other outlets. 750 ml should last for a bit and remove one other excuse for not getting the experiment going :) ... When you have time I will probably need some advice on dosing. It seems to me that the recommended dosing (~18 ml weekly for a 150 L tank) might be too lean especially for a very densely planted tank... If I double down (36 ml weekly - perhaps split in 3 weekly doses) I get something like this (courtesy of Rotalabutterfly):

Your addition of 36 ml (equivalent to 2 tbsp + 1 tsp + 1/4 tsp + 1/32 tsp + 1/64 tsp )Tropica Plant Growth Specialized to your 150L aquarium adds:
Elementppm/degree
N3.216
P0.24
Mg0.936
K2.472
S2.184
Fe0.166
Mn0.094
B0.01
Cu0.014
Mo0.005
Zn0.005
Cl1.2


I apologize about the late response, I got busy with my son and later on ER.
No worries. All the best! Family matters are more important than anything else!

Cheers,
Michael
 
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Thanks @Happi I just ordered a 750 ml Bottle of Specialized from Bensons fishroom out of NY - was $32 including tax and shipping. Not a terrible price - I've paid almost $50 in the past from other outlets. 750 ml should last for a bit and remove one other excuse for not getting the experiment going :) ... When you have time I will probably need some advice on dosing. It seems to me that the recommended dosing (~18 ml weekly for a 150 L tank) might be a too lean especially for a very densely planted tank... If I double down (36 ml weekly - perhaps split in 3 weekly doses) I get something like this (courtesy of Rotalabutterfly):

Your addition of 36 ml (equivalent to 2 tbsp + 1 tsp + 1/4 tsp + 1/32 tsp + 1/64 tsp )Tropica Plant Growth Specialized to your 150L aquarium adds:
Elementppm/degree
N3.216
P0.24
Mg0.936
K2.472
S2.184
Fe0.166
Mn0.094
B0.01
Cu0.014
Mo0.005
Zn0.005
Cl1.2



No worries. All the best! more important than anything else!

Cheers,
Michael
3ppm N weekly for low tech is excessive especially with low light, unless you have crazy emergent growth. I'd recommend maybe start with 1-2ppm N weekly max. keep in mind No3 conversion will make the No3 levels 4 times higher.
 
3ppm N weekly for low tech is excessive especially with low light, unless you have crazy emergent growth. I'd recommend maybe start with 1-2ppm N weekly max. keep in mind No3 conversion will make the No3 levels 4 times higher.
HI @plantnoobdude Your right! was just thinking about that actually.. with this I can totally skip the Mg(NO3)2 , KH2PO4 and CaCl2 (for the Cl) outlined above.

Perhaps I just go with ~1.5 x recommended dosing and get:
Your addition of 26 ml (equivalent to 1 tbsp + 2 tsp + 1/4 tsp + 1/64 tsp ) Tropica Plant Growth Specialized to your 150L aquarium adds:
Elementppm/degree
N2.323
P0.173
Mg0.676
K1.785
S1.577
Fe0.12
Mn0.068
B0.007
Cu0.01
Mo0.003
Zn0.003
Cl0.867

Not entirely sure about the Fe levels. I could supplement with a weekly dose of Fe Gluconate?

Anyway, I like how this is going.

The 18 ppm of Ca and 6 ppm of Mg level that I will target, I will get from my current Ca Gluconate, CaSO4 and Mg Gluconate and MgSO4 (I can use a bit less of MgSO4).

So hopefully, not only will I be able to grow plants under higher light intensity and low CO2, but it will also simplify my remineralization and fertilizer routine 😎

What say you @Happi - how do you like this plan?

Cheers,
Michael
 
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Not entirely sure about the Fe levels. I could supplement with a weekly dose of Fe Gluconate?
as happi said, 0.12 dtpa is more than enough for even high tech tanks if you have softwater. with low gh. only reason you need to go higher is if you have higher Ca, Mg, Co3.
as for the Ca and Mg number that is what I run my tank at, 18ppm Ca and 6ppm Mg. my tank runs from 0.05 dtpa Fe to 0.15 weekly. tropica is probably already supplimented with different forms such as heedta, gluconate anyways.
 
Yes, I think that is where we are. I don't know enough about the chemistry of inorganic carbon (at higher than ambient CO2 levels) to give a definitive answer.

You are right. High pH water about 8 and higher have almost no free CO2. Here is a paper that says:

"Above pH 8, the proportion of free CO2 drops below 2-5% and species occuring in these waters would require flow replenishment or use of alternative sources of inorganic carbon(Sheath and Hambrook, 1990)"

 
You are right. High pH water about 8 and higher have almost no free CO2. Here is a paper that says:

"Above pH 8, the proportion of free CO2 drops below 2-5% and species occuring in these waters would require flow replenishment or use of alternative sources of inorganic carbon(Sheath and Hambrook, 1990)"

No, sorry, high pH water has nothing to do with the free CO2 in water. This false doctrine persists despite all the obvious evidence and information to the contrary.
Gases typically follow Henrys Law, which states that at a given temperature the solubility of a gas in a solvent is a function of the partial pressure of that gas at which the solvent is exposed to. A corollary is that the solubility of the gas depends strictly on pressure, temperature and salinity.

I clicked on your link but could not find the page containing this quoted statement. In any case, Robert Sheath could not possibly have meant that pH affects free CO2. If so, he was in serious error or his editor misinterpreted his statement.

You would have been better off to have linked to the very obvious, such as in page 3 of W. Konche's
Biophysics and Physiology of Carbon Dioxide
Which clearly states in the Chapter 1 Introduction:
"The Gas CO2 is quite soluble in water which more than 99% exists as dissolved gas and less than 1% as Carbonic acid H2CO3, which partially disassociates to give (H+), (HCO3-) and (CO3--)."
This is unequivocal and there is no caveat regarding pH at 8.0 or above .

Lets look at an easier to understand source:
Understanding Henry's Law

The first major paragraph states:

Carbon Dioxide determines the pH of water​

First things first: technically speaking, the concentration of Hydrogen (H+) ions determines the pH. But in practice, there's something easier to conceptualize: the amount of carbon dioxide (CO2) in solution also determines the pH of the water. The most common source of acidity in water is dissolved CO2, so the more CO2 in the water, the lower the pH. This is because when CO2 comes aqueous in water, a small portion of it becomes carbonic acid (H2CO3).

The "small portion" being referred to is that "...less than 1%..." W. Konche referred to.
Scrolling a little further down we see the ubiquitous chart that causes all the confusion. But this site gives a better interpretation and calls the red line Carbonic acid instead of calling it CO2 as so many other charts label it. Again, this is a proxy for the "...less than 1%..." of the CO2 that enters the Carbonic acid equation.
Alkalinity%20Equilibrium%2C%20types%20of%20alkalinity%2C%20carbonate%20alkalinity%2C%20bicarbonate%20alkalinity%2C%20carbonic%20acid%2C%20pH%20and%20alkalinity.png


The misinterpretation of this chart and of the Carbonic acid equilibrium equation has given rise to all the misinformation that litters the internet regarding how supposedly more difficult it is to dissolve CO2 in hard, high pH water versus soft, low pH water. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Cheers,
 
No, sorry, high pH water has nothing to do with the free CO2 in water.
Hi Clive, very interesting. The notion that free carbon dioxide does not (or can not) exist naturally in water with pH above the ~8.3 equilibrium is everywhere - even the article with the quoted chart above imply so :)
I am not a chemist, so I can't argue this either way, but I sure would like to understand this better. How does KH play into this?

Cheers,
Michael
 
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also not a chemist, but if you have high pH water, and you add CO2... wouldn't there be some sort of acid-base reaction that creates some sort of carbonate... so some of the CO2 (whether first converted to carbonic acid or not) gets used up creating this carbonate.... but eventually, in a closed system like an aquarium, the pH will start to drop? glad to hear from the experts on this.
 

I should pay a visit to Roger Goh's store sometime to see if he has any interesting plants. I guess when you are selling plants, maximum growth from EI is an advantage.
 

I should pay a visit to Roger Goh's store sometime to see if he has any interesting plants. I guess when you are selling plants, maximum growth from EI is an advantage.
1647707167073.png


can you guess which tank used EI dosing here?
 
Hi @Happi, Is there are a link to an article describing the setup and dosing in each of these tanks?

Cheers,
Michael
Aquarium
Aquarium

this is a great example of one of the Experiment

the above experiment shows that you can grow plant very fast compared to EI if you were to use Marchner based Formula, my personal take on this is that due to presence of NH4 in the formula, you are getting the maximim and fast growth, but at the same time Marchner ratio shows that the uptake of other nutrients are no where near as being suggested.

my experiment with these plants are that they will continue to grow well even under higher dosing long as there is NH4 present for them, the stunting and deformation was still present here and there but nothing major. but, under Marchner ratio they hardly ever got stunted and these experiments were replicated and tested again over again.

even if you were to use Tropica and add almost 30 ppm equivalent NO3, most Nutrients are no where near that are being suggested or dosed by people. Tropica been around for decade now and used by many professionals.

N6.8
P0.51
Mg1.98
K5.22
S4.62
Fe0.35
Mn0.2
B0.02
Cu0.03
Mo0.01
Zn0.01
Cl2.54
 
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Hi all,
You are right. High pH water about 8 and higher have almost no free CO2. Here is a paper that says:
That is at atmospheric CO2 levels, like Clive @ceg4048 says, but that pH levels depends on the <"level of CO2 in the atmosphere">.

I think if you add CO2, and you have one unit pH drop from your starting pH (however high the initial pH was), you have ~30ppm of dissolved CO2.

cheers Darrel
 
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the above experiment shows that you can grow plant very fast compared to EI if you were to use Marchner based Formula,

Hi @Happi super interesting - will have to study this more. Personally, I am not particularly picky on fast growth - only plant health. Going through the photo evidence, I would say the EI tank (#2) is doing pretty well - as we all would probably expect - the two lean tanks appears to do better though. With everything else being equal, it might come down to the NH4...

Cheers,
Michael
 
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