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Leaves/Tannins

I wouldn't use anything from Beech.
If I remember correctly there are more types of fungus found in beech Woods than any other types of woodland.
I know walking in a beech wood the woodland floor is very sterile with little, if any undergrowth.
 
Beech leaves are great in a tank. Look lovely and take ages to break down.

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Hi all,
But on the other hand we throw in non aquatic leaves and many of us leave them to rot as well. Aint that a bit melting as well? Kinda makes me wonder.. Can't we just leave old melting leaves melt?
Like Lindy says the leaves you want have had all the sugars and proteins removed them by the plant before being shed.

The seral stage of the plant also matters, trees from later seral successions (climax communities) like Oak and Beech have leaves and often fruit loaded with toxic compounds to make them unpalatable to grazers, as well as antimicrobial compounds to deter opportunistic fungi etc. This creates shed leaves that are resistant to decay.
If I remember correctly there are more types of fungus found in beech Woods than any other types of woodland.
I know walking in a beech wood the woodland floor is very sterile with little, if any undergrowth.
This is the other side of the fungal coin, trees are reliant on their mycorrhizial symbionts to procure scarce nutrients, so as well as the opportunistic fungal pathogens they want to deter there are a large number of "toadstools" they want to combine with. Also it is only the Basidiomycota that have the enzymes to digest the lignin rich heart wood of trees.

Beech woods have little undergrowth because they have persistent leaf litter that reduces seedling emergence, they have a very full canopy that intercepts nearly all the light (and water) falling on it and you can't easily coppice them, meaning that most ancient beech woods have been managed as high forest.

cheers Darrel
 
Cheers Darrel.
Most on the list are in my garden.Do you know if any of the others are ok ?.
 
Hi all,
Do you know if any of the others are ok ?.
Elm and Zelkova are very similar, my suspicion would be that they won't be very persistent as leaf litter. Magnolia stellata is OK, but the leaves skeletonize really quickly.

I don't think any of them are likely to be toxic, but I might avoid Ash (the leaves still have some chlorophyll when they are shed), and possibly Cherry (these may contain traces of cyanide).

cheers Darrel
 
The leaves and stems of woody terrestrial plants contain lignin, and cellulose, which gives them the structural rigidity needed to resist gravity etc.

They're pretty tough organic polymers and hard to break down. Aquatic plants don't require so much structural support so they don't contain so much lignin and therefore rot away much quicker.

Tannins serve to protect woody terrestrial plants from predation. During times of stress or autumn etc the flow of nutrients to the leaves is gradually cut off, and any molecules in the leaves that can be re-mobilised are used elsewhere.

Tannins on the other hand remain, and give trees their characteristic autumnal shades of brown.

Aquatic plants are relatively devoid of tannins.

So I guess that's why aquatic plant leaves (even those that have been dried) aren't fit for our purposes, but woody terrestrial plant leaves are.
 
It was the dried Sedge which is used and solled as a beter alternative instead of peat to use as substrate to grow a few aquatic plants. Was what made me go out of the box here, since we also use peat for this purpose. It came a bit like adomino effect.. :rolleyes:

Anyway is started diggin after some very usefull comments here and is is indeed the Chloroplasts which ofcourse contain glucose and starches and are retracted from the leaves by the tree during that dying process. Plants obviously do the same and after reading all again, i missed a fe words in the sedge story too.:shy: Same story actualy
Robust sedge or reed litter (i.e., dry dead leaves or straw collected in late winter) is the required substrate.

They advise to collect Carex and Cyperus sp. for that, i happen to grow both at the pond in the garden. not far away from dying, this time of year.. Still makes me wonder about it's use in aquarium as cappata replacement.. :)
 
Hi all,
They advise to collect Carex and Cyperus sp. for that, i happen to grow both at the pond in the garden.
Some "Sedges" have persistent leaves, they used to use <"Cladium mariscus"> for thatching houses in the UK, and much of the peat we still harvest is <"sedge peat"> from former fens.

It won't soften the water like sphagnum peat would (the cation exchange sites will have at least some Ca++ ions present), or add much in the way of tannins (for the reasons "Tim Harrison" mentions).

The Aldrovanda link is interesting, I add <"some dried grass to my Daphnia cultures">, and it definitely makes them stay productive longer.

cheers Darrel
 
Hi all,Some "Sedges" have persistent leaves, they used to use <"Cladium mariscus"> for thatching houses in the UK, and much of the peat we still harvest is <"sedge peat"> from former fens.

It won't soften the water like sphagnum peat would (the cation exchange sites will have at least some Ca++ ions present), or add much in the way of tannins (for the reasons "Tim Harrison" mentions).

The Aldrovanda link is interesting, I add <"some dried grass to my Daphnia cultures">, and it definitely makes them stay productive longer.

cheers Darrel

Indeed intresting articles to find at bestcarnivorousplants.com, al tho their information is a bit scatered. Everywhere bits and pieces They also sell leaf litter to use in which they short explain how to use it. Even tho it might not realese much tannins as you say, still they recomend to soak it in warm water for a few days, to wash out excesive tannins. Seeing the excample pots on the picture it still is pretty stained with 4 grams on 3 litre they recommend. Is indeed a bunch you would need to stain a 150 litre tank with it. 200 grams, i guess thats quite a ba full in dried state..

http://www.bestcarnivorousplants.com/aldrovanda/aldrovanda_for_sale.htm
All the way down on this site.. :)

For me personaly it's not the staining i'm after, more the other biological effects.. I'm growing Cyperus alternifolius, Cyperus Gracilis and Carex panacea at the pond this year.. They die off anyway.. I'll collect and dry them and do some tests.. Still waiting on my Utricularia volubilis seeds to germinate, it might come into use if they do. :)
 
Cherry (these may contain traces of cyanide).

cheers Darrel
I was readin something the other day about temperatures above 60 removing cyanide some how. Do you know much about this at all? If so then a quick boil wold do the trick perhaps?
 
I was readin something the other day about temperatures above 60 removing cyanide some how. Do you know much about this at all? If so then a quick boil wold do the trick perhaps?

You are refering to the Glucosides which are formed in those chloroplasts mentioned above which are retracted from the leaves during this dying process by the tree. Some are Glycoalkaloids, cyanogenic glycosides is one thing it can contain.. One of the most common for us humans is Solanine form the nightshades as Tomatoes and potatoes.

This is what said about coocking..
Home processing methods (boiling, cooking, frying, and microwaving) have small and variable effects on glycoalkaloids. For example, boiling potatoes reduces the α-chaconine and α-solanine levels by only 3.5% and 1.2%, respectively; the corresponding loss during microwaving is 15%. Deep-frying at 150 °C (302 °F) does not result in any measurable change; significant degradation starts at ∼170 °C (338 °F), and deep-frying at 210 °C (410 °F) for 10 min causes a loss of ∼40%.[9] Freeze-drying or dehydration has little effect.[10]
We can take a certain level of this poisoning a few mg a day is still safe, we probably eat it more than we realize with fruits and nust etc.. That mexican tree spinach is a good example, of which is said you can eat 3 raw leaves of it without ill effects. If cooked you can eat more.. I guess it's that little loss about 15% only which is enough for us to eat more of it..
 
Hi all,
I was readin something the other day about temperatures above 60 removing cyanide some how
I don't know, we need a chemist.

You can smell the prussic acid in laurel leaves (Prunus laurocerasus), it smells of almonds (or more correctly almonds smell of prussic acid), so that may be an option.

cheers Darrel
 
it smells of almonds

I remeber working near DSM Acrylonitrile where HCN was/is made, they said if you smell almonds you are to late to run and if you do and do not get help within a few munites you'll never run again. There where reports of people fainting while walking by a HCN gass leak.. Personaly i never experienced something happening there, but i was glad only to be there for a very short periode. That stuff seems to be very nasty and lethal.. Very unpleasant place to work..
 
Maybe search for a proffesional cook, they might be easier to find and able to tell you some basics as well. I have a gut feeling that this subject is with some degree and in-depth in there study. Since that stuff is so common to be found in food..

See this and is all about, soaking and cooking..
http://www.cfs.gov.hk/english/programme/programme_rafs/files/ras27_natural_toxin_in_food_plant.pdf

I quickly skipped throught it with the search query cook.. And it seems it's rather not as you ask an quick boil.. It's more thoroughly soaking and cooking.. Even dry heat seems to be useless to get the stuff out.
 
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