Lockdown EA Aquascaper 900

X3NiTH

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13 Apr 2014
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969
Anubias can melt for many reasons outside of acclimating to new growing conditions but If you suspect you have Burrowing Nematode Disease (Radolphus Similis is the main culprit but there are others) the easiest off the shelf medicant to use would be eSHa NDX as it’s a very effective nematocide, active ingredient is Levamisole.

Pannacur (fenbendazole) is poorly soluble in water if you use the granules. Still good enough to use though.

If the Nematodes have deeply invaded plant tissue and the nematocide of choice didn’t work then you need to destroy the plant, further remedial action for deep tissue infestation in plant tissue is a 54c bath for around 5mins, for me this lead to 99% of affected plant destruction, some Anubia rhizome survived and regrew but since it was left on a windowsill and I forgot it dried out (probably for the best).

:)
 

aquascape1987

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227
Anubias can melt for many reasons outside of acclimating to new growing conditions but If you suspect you have Burrowing Nematode Disease (Radolphus Similis is the main culprit but there are others) the easiest off the shelf medicant to use would be eSHa NDX as it’s a very effective nematocide, active ingredient is Levamisole.

Pannacur (fenbendazole) is poorly soluble in water if you use the granules. Still good enough to use though.

If the Nematodes have deeply invaded plant tissue and the nematocide of choice didn’t work then you need to destroy the plant, further remedial action for deep tissue infestation in plant tissue is a 54c bath for around 5mins, for me this lead to 99% of affected plant destruction, some Anubia rhizome survived and regrew but since it was left on a windowsill and I forgot it dried out (probably for the best).

:)
So do you think it is a nematode, rather than bacteria that causes this then? If so would the critter be visible, or microscopic? I only ask because I’ve never actually seen anything when I have had this before. The only visible symptom being the decomposition of the plant.

I think next time I encounter this, I’m going to try treating with just the wormer, and if successful, would suggest the nematode as the likely culprit
 

X3NiTH

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13 Apr 2014
Messages
969
Bacteria are mainly opportunists and feed on broken down tissue so not a direct cause and can be generally discounted. Poor nutrition over a long period of time will take out Anubias also very low light levels (Bucephalandra win this fight easily). Rapid changes in Alkalinity on an upward trend also triggers melt leading to rhizome destruction, took mine less than a week for complete obliteration going from 0KH to above 12, it happened in one go when I had a CEC reversal in my substrate due to a huge micro overdose.

Nematodes can only be positively identified by microscopy, but some can be large enough to be noted with a magnifying glass (or macro photography).

It’s best avoided broadcast dosing Antibiotics into a free environment as an adjunctive therapy.

:)
 

Richard40

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14 Jan 2020
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283
Location
Manchester
So an update on my tank. It’s 6 weeks old on Friday.
Last Wednesday I put 15 Clithon Corona snails in from Tropco, very cool tiny little snail.
I also controversially added 10, yes 10 German Blue Rams. Plus 7 Ottocinclus.

So far so good, all Rams been sifting the front and side sand daily and eating there with pellet, algae wafers and bloodworm.

Otto’s are very active, sticking to the glass, shoaling around together and chilling on the large balansae leaves, swaying in the flow. I felt that the tank was mature enough, algae on the glass and some of the rocks, snails were multiplying without any food being introduced! Ottos had been in the LFS since before lockdown, so they had full bellies, were very active and feeding well.

I’m leaving these in for 2 weeks before I add anymore fish in the tank. There are plenty of bushy areas with the stem plants at the back now so any fish that need to get away can do and quickly.

Only problem I had was with the level of CO2. Had to really reduce the amount and increase surface agitation, which I’ve talked about already on a separate thread. Rams were struggling with it, every two days I’m attempting to turn the BFS up very slightly and seeing how they are.

I’m on a weekly water change now, I attempted to glue some Mini Pelia at the weekend from Buttons, but struggled a little, it will need some extra glue next water change to pin it down in places. I did probably a 70-80% water change and think I’ll continue to do this amount each week.

I bought a Meat thermometer which seems to be accurate and easy to use to test the water temp and also the water going in from the bucket in the sink which is pumped in.

Temp is at 24.5 degrees and the Rams are absolutely fine, colouring up nicely.

Plant wise everything growing well, but the lucens and Willissii leaves turning spotty yellow colour from new growth, so I’ve upped the dose of macro and micro to see if this helps. Lighting is at 70% for 8 hours.
 

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Deano3

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8 Feb 2012
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2,010
Wow some amazing growth, have you stuck to the recomendations of the aquarium plant food EI and only dosed what they recomend?

And what BPS is your co2 mate

Thanks dean

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castle

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19 Dec 2015
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norfolk
Well, you can’t in the UK as antibiotics are prescription only. Only way to do it is to scavenge around friends and family, asking if they have any untaken left overs from previous treatments with antibiotics. That’s what I did, and I amassed quite a lot of different types.
And then you tell them off. Tell them to always finish their course!
 

Nick72

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21 Apr 2020
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Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Hi @Richard40

Just found this thread and your tank is coming along nicely.

Keeping 10 GBR in 190 litres is a way to go, it may bring down aggression due to density much in the same way it does for larger Cichlids, and if not it may at least spread the aggression around a larger group.

I'll be interested to hear how it works out.

You seem to have a lot of females, I only spotted 1 male in your photos. Perhaps you have more males that simply were not in the photos.

Unfortunately GBR cannot survive long at 24.5c, it's too cold for them and will lower their immune system, which in turn will make them susceptible to any number of illnesses.

They really need 29c to thrive.

I would really recommend that you increase the temperature of your tank for the sake of the GBR.
 

Richard40

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14 Jan 2020
Messages
283
Location
Manchester
Wow some amazing growth, have you stuck to the recomendations of the aquarium plant food EI and only dosed what they recomend?

And what BPS is your co2 mate

Thanks dean

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk
Yes I’ve slightly increased the dose of EI by 5ml every day. BPS was on fairly high, wouldn’t be able to count it, but had to reduce it as GBR’s we’re struggling before the end of the photo period.
I did put root capsules in the soil before I planted and added these all over. I’ve had to cut down the Hippuiroides and Rotala Green as they were getting crazy. Some of the Crypts taking a while to grow though, nearer to the right hand side, I think the Rotala green was not allowing the light to get through to them.
 

Deano3

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8 Feb 2012
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2,010
Yes I’ve slightly increased the dose of EI by 5ml every day. BPS was on fairly high, wouldn’t be able to count it, but had to reduce it as GBR’s we’re struggling before the end of the photo period.
I did put root capsules in the soil before I planted and added these all over. I’ve had to cut down the Hippuiroides and Rotala Green as they were getting crazy. Some of the Crypts taking a while to grow though, nearer to the right hand side, I think the Rotala green was not allowing the light to get through to them.
Thanks for that i think i am going to leave out rotala as its crazy in my 45p grows too fast.

So you made up the micros and macros as the instructions said then added the dose it recomends ?

Then how long after did you start dosing a little more and if so how much more are you dosing ?

Dean



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Richard40

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Manchester
Yes just as per the instructions. Straight away I was adding 5-10ml more. 40ml per day standard amount. Bubble count I’ve had to reduce a lot because my Rams I found were always struggling around 7pm and I had to move the outlet pipe above the water to pump oxygen in. I’d say it on about 4-5 bubbles per second now.
 

aquascape1987

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6 Nov 2014
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227
And we wonder why antibiotic resistance is in the rise...
Haha, I’ve only just seen this reply . Think you need to look at it a bit more in perspective to be honest, before you start lynching. Just as I suggested someone would probably attempt to do to me for posting it in the first place. Typical of the sort of unfriendly attitude on this forum of ‘friendly experts ’ I find though, to be honest. I often find on this forum, that you ask a question, and it is quite often met with obtuse answers that seem to be designed to obstruct or part answered questions by people who you know have the full knowledge of what is being asked, and are purposely not giving the full information (if answered at all). As if it pains them to actually give you the knowledge that they have, for some bizarre warped reason!If you aren’t one of the guys that are in ‘the clique’, you tend to not get the info or response you are seeking on this site... It’s pathetic really, like primary school playground politics. Statement drawn from experience of being on this site and observing and participating for 6 years now! Not everyone, but I feel it is quite pervasive.

Anyway, the reason I stuck my neck out and answered this question at the risk of lynching, is because I know for a fact that this cures this common issue of rot that you get with anubias. A condition with this plant that 99% of what you read online about people’s experiences with it, suggests that it is always inevitably fatal once you have it. The reason I shared this controversial knowledge at risk of lynching is because I have the opposite attitude of what I have just described above, that I see and experience so often on this , to quote again ‘friendly site of experts and hobbyists’ I have cured this and I wanted to help the OP before his entire tank of anubias turned to white mush.

So looking at it in perspective then... First of all, the broad spectrum antibiotics given together with the wormer works. Simple as that! Solves the problem, 100 percent! It resolves this common anubias issue that once you have it, is usually fatal to the plant as well as spreading to all the other anubias you have in the tank...

Secondly, the amount of antibiotic you need to to use to do this is minuscule... a small percentage of of one pill put into an 8 litre tank for one week, once only. To treat all your Anubias. It’s not like I’m suggesting you just empty in a full human 2 weeks course of multiple antibiotics into a tank, only to pour away into the watercourse a week later. I’m talking about less than 100mg of antibiotic, total combined mass of all of the different types. Once and once only. Hardly think doing that a couple of times in your whole life is contributing much to worldwide antibiotic resistance being on the rise, when really that is caused by MILLIONS of idiots taking a full weeks or longer course of an antibiotic at say 200mg twice or four times a day, to try to resolve a cold or something else non bacterial. Or some other equally ludicrous example, like this where taking antibiotics actually won’t work at all and all they are doing is indirectly feeding it into the watercourse. Or doctors and dentists prescribing millions of courses of antibiotics for preventative reasons, just to be on the safe side. (Say for example after a wisdom tooth has been removed)
So yes, it is hardly surprising that antibiotic resistance is on the rise when you look at those examples above, but I think your statement alluding to it hardly being surprising that this issue is on the rise when talking about some aquarist like me using a tiny amount of antibiotic to resolve a one off issue, is like suggesting that it’s no surprise the the global greenhouse effect is snowballing because of me injecting CO2 into my 90 litre tank!
:mad:
 
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Onoma1

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12 Aug 2018
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443
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Rochdale
I had to read this twice. Couldn't quite believe that someone could do do this. Sorry...don't want to lynch anyone. This may be helpful to understand why thus isn't a good choice https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/antibiotic-resistance
I apologise if my use of language offended you in anyway. In retrospect using the word lynching (even in the context of not wanting to lynch) was unfortunate. Please accept my apologies.

Could I reiterate that I am not in a clique, haven't seen one on this forum and have instead seen a wide divergence in views and lots of informed discussion. Evidenced debate is an important part of this forum as us advice.

@X3NiTH provided both an expert view on an alternative approach and diagnosis of the problem in a constructive manner. This is a superb example if the types of measured and informed responses found on this forum.

I have, however, to disagree with your point about BGA. Given that there are alternative approaches to treating BGA and global concerns about antibiotic resistance I think use of antibiotics in this context is incorrect. I don't agree with your argument about volume and feel that use of antibiotics in this context increases risk particularly when we combine this with large water changes:

"Waste waters contain traces of antibiotics and other compounds which can cause a selection pressure for antibiotic resistance, and even low concentrations are able to cause selection pressure."

Antibiotic-Resistance Genes in Waste Water": https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0966842X1730210X

The risk vs the benefit in my opinion just doesn't stack up.

To be more controversial, perhaps given concerns about plant pathologies across borders and between species ( see Kim et al, 2020) we should be using stronger bio security in the UK to stop the sale or import of diseased plants negating the need to use antibiotics and avoiding multiple other ancillary risks.

BTW how did you persuade your partner to let you buy a new tank after just 3 days? That must be a record ...particularly after a flood and damaged laminate!

Kim, J.‐S., Yoon, S.‐J., Park, Y.‐J., Kim, S.‐Y. and Ryu, C.‐M. (2020), Crossing the kingdom border: Human diseases caused by plant pathogens. Environ Microbiol, 22: 2485-2495. doi:10.1111/1462-2920.15028
 
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hypnogogia

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Joined
6 Apr 2017
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558
Location
Oxfordshire
Haha, I’ve only just seen this reply . Think you need to look at it a bit more in perspective to be honest, before you start lynching. Just as I suggested someone would probably attempt to do to me for posting it in the first place. Typical of the sort of unfriendly attitude on this forum of ‘friendly experts ’ I find though, to be honest. I often find on this forum, that you ask a question, and it is quite often met with obtuse answers that seem to be designed to obstruct or part answered questions by people who you know have the full knowledge of what is being asked, and are purposely not giving the full information (if answered at all). As if it pains them to actually give you the knowledge that they have, for some bizarre warped reason!If you aren’t one of the guys that are in ‘the clique’, you tend to not get the info or response you are seeking on this site... It’s pathetic really, like primary school playground politics. Statement drawn from experience of being on this site and observing and participating for 6 years now! Not everyone, but I feel it is quite pervasive.

Anyway, the reason I stuck my neck out and answered this question at the risk of lynching, is because I know for a fact that this cures this common issue of rot that you get with anubias. A condition with this plant that 99% of what you read online about people’s experiences with it, suggests that it is always inevitably fatal once you have it. The reason I shared this controversial knowledge at risk of lynching is because I have the opposite attitude of what I have just described above, that I see and experience so often on this , to quote again ‘friendly site of experts and hobbyists’ I have cured this and I wanted to help the OP before his entire tank of anubias turned to white mush.

So looking at it in perspective then... First of all, the broad spectrum antibiotics given together with the wormer works. Simple as that! Solves the problem, 100 percent! It resolves this common anubias issue that once you have it, is usually fatal to the plant as well as spreading to all the other anubias you have in the tank...

Secondly, the amount of antibiotic you need to to use to do this is minuscule... a small percentage of of one pill put into an 8 litre tank for one week, once only. To treat all your Anubias. It’s not like I’m suggesting you just empty in a full human 2 weeks course of multiple antibiotics into a tank, only to pour away into the watercourse a week later. I’m talking about less than 100mg of antibiotic, total combined mass of all of the different types. Once and once only. Hardly think doing that a couple of times in your whole life is contributing much to worldwide antibiotic resistance being on the rise, when really that is caused by MILLIONS of idiots taking a full weeks or longer course of an antibiotic at say 200mg twice or four times a day, to try to resolve a cold or something else non bacterial. Or some other equally ludicrous example, like this where taking antibiotics actually won’t work at all and all they are doing is indirectly feeding it into the watercourse. Or doctors and dentists prescribing millions of courses of antibiotics for preventative reasons, just to be on the safe side. (Say for example after a wisdom tooth has been removed)
So yes, it is hardly surprising that antibiotic resistance is on the rise when you look at those examples above, but I think your statement alluding to it hardly being surprising that this issue is on the rise when talking about some aquarist like me using a tiny amount of antibiotic to resolve a one off issue, is like suggesting that it’s no surprise the the global greenhouse effect is snowballing because of me injecting CO2 into my 90 litre tank!
:mad:
Oops. First of all, I didn’t suggest a lynching and secondly my, commemt was in relation to using antibiotics from unfinished courses, which very obviously does contribute to antibiotic resistance. I am not suggesting that antibiotics do not work as Giu had suggested. The key to antibiotics is to always kill all the bacteria because any that survive are likely to develop resistance and then spread. That was my very sumpfet point. :)
 

aquascape1987

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6 Nov 2014
Messages
227
There is no need to apologise @Onoma1 , you haven’t offended me at all! And also if you read, it was me that introduced the word lynch first. In anticipation of what was likely to come.

Also if you read, I suggested the opposite of large and frequent water changes, I actually suggested isolating all affected plants into a tiny tank, and not changing the water at all untill the treatment was complete.

Another thing as well...BGA wasn’t issue that was being discussed. Certain antibiotics indeed do kill the bacteria involved with BGA, but that is not the same issue with anubias. I personally have resolved it with Phyton Gitt from ADA.

As for volume not being relevant to whether or not antibiotics are being used responsibly, or for how this contributes to growing antibiotic resistance, judging by your point of view, the fact that any antibiotics have ever, even in small quantities leached into the watercourse has already set into motion the demise of their future effectiveness. The volume then of future antibiotics that enter the system , whether from an aquarist or from human consumption is now irrelevant? Which I don’t believe to be true. Hence my alluding to looking at what I was saying in perspective, because I think perspective is important.


I also didn’t suggest that YOU were part of a clique. I actually didn’t name anyone personally on that front at all....I merely set the scene with a back drop of unhelpfulness (not sure if that’s a word) that I have seen on and off throughout my years on the site, whilst trying to draw a comparison with what my intentions were, behind my original comment on this. And if you haven’t seen any evidence of what I wrote there, then I’d suggest that you have been incredibly lucky whilst browsing the site. Incredibly lucky to have not noticed the amount of new inexperienced members who launch journal threads within their first few posts on the site, only to get zero or very low numbers of responses or likes at all, or if they do get a response, often they are banal luke warm and limited responses, with close to zero encouragement. Or the amount of desperate pleas for help and information you sometimes see from, again new and probably inexperienced members in the UK as well as far flung corners of the world that go uncommented on. Guys that have a pressing issue like this or that algae taking over their tank, or livestock dying, only for the silence on their help thread to be deafening. OR WORSE some guy nonchalantly replying that this has all already been discussed before, without actually bothering to link the poor guy up with these earlier discussions, which would probably prove invaluable for him. Then weeks later maybe a semi helpful reply, after the poor persons tank has probably imploded, and they’ve shut it down due to frustration, and will likely never log into their UKAPs account again and even see the very late and unhelpful reply... Again, not suggesting this is every occurrence, but I’ve seen a lot of it. Yet just judging by the sheer volume of some members posts that appear on their stats, it is obvious that they watch the forums like a hawk, replying to people all the time. I personally am quite liberal with the like button when I find time to come on, as I like to encourage people. Even sometimes if I don’t particularly like their tank pic, just to provide some encouragement, I will like it.
Then conversely you see well established members who post in their journals, pictures of tanks, that receive dozens of gushing replies and likes. Pictures of tanks that to me, in many instances, do not look anymore impressive than the pictures posted a moment earlier from little old username name Joe Bloggs who has a total of 3 previous posts to his name and only 1 previous like. You don’t ever see that? Really? Because I do. I don’t think we need to debate that aspect further as this is someone’s journal and it’s completely off point, but then again I’ve had numerous private conversations about this privately with other members who see it also. So I’m glad I’ve actually said it publicly and I stand by it. There have been many times over the years I’ve had frustration to the responses or, lack there of to my pleas for help, which have caused me to log off and not bother coming back for 6 months or so.

What I actually wrote in this respect had nothing to do with me being against ‘evidenced debate’ as you put it. Quite the opposite in fact, evidenced debate is exactly what people are looking for on this site. But evidenced debate is not the same thing as shooting someone down in ball of flames with a short, sharp barbed take down that contains no debate at all.


I’m not saying everyone does all of this, and I’m not saying that there isn’t a lot of useful info and debate on this site, because there is, and I do find a lot of it very useful. There are also a lot of very helpful people on this site, both well established members and new members alike. I’m saying I have seen A LOT of this sort of thing over the years, which I don’t think is friendly, helpful or encouraging at all personally. And I stand by that even if it’s unpopular opinion and I lose my UKAPs access for saying it.
 
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aquascape1987

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6 Nov 2014
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227
Anyway, sorry for the rant and it is the last I’m going to comment on this... And I sincerely hope that of anyone that might read this, now or in the future, I hope that the only ones that it offends are people that are guilty of behaving in that way on here! :)
 

aquascape1987

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6 Nov 2014
Messages
227
Oops. First of all, I didn’t suggest a lynching and secondly my, commemt was in relation to using antibiotics from unfinished courses, which very obviously does contribute to antibiotic resistance. I am not suggesting that antibiotics do not work as Giu had suggested. The key to antibiotics is to always kill all the bacteria because any that survive are likely to develop resistance and then spread. That was my very sumpfet point. :)
What would you have me do then? Demand that these people immediately down the last one or two missed Doxycycline pills from their course of antibiotics, that they didn’t complete all by themselves weeks/months/ years before? Would that have helped to ensure that they had got rid of their Chlamydia or whatever other pathogen that they had taken the course for in the first place? I think not! Let’s not bend or misconstrue the truth here. I didn’t ask these people to miss a couple of pills from their courses so I could harvest them. I harvested pills that they had already forgotten/chosen not to take by themselves, some time before the event
 

hypnogogia

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6 Apr 2017
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Oxfordshire
What would you have me do then? Demand that these people immediately down the last one or two missed Doxycycline pills from their course of antibiotics, that they didn’t complete all by themselves weeks/months/ years before? Would that have helped to ensure that they had got rid of their Chlamydia or whatever other pathogen that they had taken the course for in the first place? I think not! Let’s not bend or misconstrue the truth here. I didn’t ask these people to miss a couple of pills from their courses so I could harvest them. I harvested pills that they had already forgotten/chosen not to take by themselves, some time before the event
You really are a bit touchy. I think we have gone as far as we can here.
 

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