MG/FE deficiency in S. Repens and Rotala Indica

Siddy

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Hi all,
I recently noticed that my rotala indica and s. Repens seem to have some sort of deficiency. The veins look dark green while the new leaves are mostly yellow which makes me think it’s MG, what’s strange is that all the other plants are doing really well. See the photo in comment. Any idea how to fix this? I dose tropica specialised 2 pumps per week. This is week 3 in the new tank. It’s a 55 litre tank with 8 hour photo period and pressurised CO2 injection.
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
I think you are right it looks like there might well be both magnesium (Mg) and iron (Fe) issues. They are more likely to occur in hard water with a high calcium (Ca) content.

Deficiencies cause <"interveinal chlorosis">, but which leaves it effects first differs.

Magnesium (Mg) is mobile within the plant, so the plant can move it to new leaves, and deficiency effects older leaves. Iron isn't mobile within the plant and deficiency symptoms appear first in newer leaves. Have a look at <"(Early) signs....">, it has @Zeus. spectacularly stripy Pogostemon helferi in it.

upload_2020-1-22_21-28-35-png.png


Any magnesium deficiency is easily addressed with <"Epsom Salts"> (MgSO4.7H2O), which are 10% Mg.

Iron is a bit more complicated, because plants don't need very much of it, but it is <"difficult to keep in solution in harder water">. It is only new leaves that will be larger and greener, the iron deficient ones will remain yellow.

cheers Darrel
 

Sammy Islam

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I would dose 1 pump per day to start off with, most fertilizer instructions are based on low tech tanks without co2. If that doesn't improve things in a week or two then i would up the dose to 2 pumps per day. The leaves will look better if the MG deficiency is fixed, but they will still be pale as the iron deficiency can't be fixed in older leaves. So looking at how healthy the new growth/leaves are is the way forward.
 

Siddy

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I have both the tropica ones. Wouldn’t 1 per day be too much? My tap water already has pretty high nitrates (30-40 ppm). Is adding Epsom salt a better idea?
I could have gone down to daily water change and fert overdose path but my shrimps don’t like it so I stick to twice a week
 

Sammy Islam

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Over dosing ferts is fine and won't harm your shrimp or cause algae. A lot of people on here dose EI levels of ferts which is waaaay more than the tropica will supply, probably like atleast 30x more. For instance my tap water is similar to yours in terms of nitrates being about 30ppm, i still add 20ppm nitrates on top from dosing.

The dosing instructions on tropica are mainly for a low tech tank without co2. But you are using co2 and have good plant mass so your plants will need more food. 1 pump per day isn't that much, and would probably sort out your deficiencies.

Adding MG will help your deficiency a teaspoon of mgso47h2o during water change, but if you are not adding more iron then it's not going to get fixed. On the tropica website it says something like you will have to use a lot more than the instructions when the plant mass calls for it. So 1 pump per day should fix your deficiencies, also when running a high tech tank it's a good idea to feed your plants daily.

You should either dose the green tropica solution 1 pump a day, or you could try alternating dosing between the green and orange. So one day 1 pump green, next day 1 pump orange and keep repeating.
 
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Siddy

Member
Joined
6 Jan 2020
Messages
29
Location
London
Hi all,
I think you are right it looks like there might well be both magnesium (Mg) and iron (Fe) issues. They are more likely to occur in hard water with a high calcium (Ca) content.

Deficiencies cause <"interveinal chlorosis">, but which leaves it effects first differs.

Magnesium (Mg) is mobile within the plant, so the plant can move it to new leaves, and deficiency effects older leaves. Iron isn't mobile within the plant and deficiency symptoms appear first in newer leaves. Have a look at <"(Early) signs....">, it has @Zeus. spectacularly stripy Pogostemon helferi in it.

upload_2020-1-22_21-28-35-png.png


Any magnesium deficiency is easily addressed with <"Epsom Salts"> (MgSO4.7H2O), which are 10% Mg.

Iron is a bit more complicated, because plants don't need very much of it, but it is <"difficult to keep in solution in harder water">. It is only new leaves that will be larger and greener, the iron deficient ones will remain yellow.

cheers Darrel
Makes complete sense. I am London based so have really hard water with quite high nitrates (30-40 ppm average) I’m looking out for non plumbed RO unit to hopefully solve this.
For now, I’ll use more ferts and add Epsom salt,
 

Siddy

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Joined
6 Jan 2020
Messages
29
Location
London
Over dosing ferts is fine and won't harm your shrimp or cause algae. A lot of people on here dose EI levels of ferts which is waaaay more than the tropica will supply, probably like atleast 30x more. For instance my tap water is similar to yours in terms of nitrates being about 30ppm, i still add 20ppm nitrates on top from dosing.

The dosing instructions on tropica are mainly for a low tech tank without co2. But you are using co2 and have good plant mass so your plants will need more food. 1 pump per day isn't that much, and would probably sort out your deficiencies.

Adding MG will help your deficiency a teaspoon of mgso47h2o during water change, but if you are not adding more iron then it's not going to get fixed. On the tropica website it says something like you will have to use a lot more than the instructions when the plant mass calls for it. So 1 pump per day should fix your deficiencies, also when running a high tech tank it's a good idea to feed your plants daily.

You should either dose the green tropica solution 1 pump a day, or you could try alternating dosing between the green and orange. So one day 1 pump green, next day 1 pump orange and keep repeating.
Gotcha! Alternate day schedule seems good enough. I’ll start from tomorrow. Should I increase/decrease the lighting or CO2 levels? I’m already at 1.5 - 2 bps with 55-60% light intensity (chihiros wrgb)
 

Sammy Islam

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I would leave everything the same for now! Just up the dosing and wait 2 weeks, if the new growth on the plants is good, then you're on the right track. Then you can think about increasing light, co2 and more ferts. The more light and co2 you have the more ferts (food) your plants will need, you have to find the balance.

So your plan should be:
1) add 0.5-1tsp mgso4 weekly when filling up during water change
2) 1pump a day alternating green & orange

If you think the plants need more ferts in 2 weeks time i would start dosing the green 1pump a day.
 

Siddy

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6 Jan 2020
Messages
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Location
London
I would leave everything the same for now! Just up the dosing and wait 2 weeks, if the new growth on the plants is good, then you're on the right track. Then you can think about increasing light, co2 and more ferts. The more light and co2 you have the more ferts (food) your plants will need, you have to find the balance.

So your plan should be:
1) add 0.5-1tsp mgso4 weekly when filling up during water change
2) 1pump a day alternating green & orange

If you think the plants need more ferts in 2 weeks time i would start dosing the green 1pump a day.
Understood, I’ll keep you all posted. thank you so much for all the help!
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
For now, I’ll use more ferts and add Epsom salt,
Probably would.

Assuming the newest leaves on the Staurogyne repens really do look that pale? You will need to add some iron chelate as well. It is back to <"Liebig's law of the minimum">, plants are like a car assembly line, you need all the components to get a "car".

You can usually easily get <"Chempak Sequestered Iron">, but I think a lot of garden fertilisers are in short supply at the moment.

cheers Darrel
 

Siddy

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Messages
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Location
London
Hi all, Probably would.

Assuming the newest leaves on the Staurogyne repens really do look that pale? You will need to add some iron chelate as well. It is back to <"Liebig's law of the minimum">, plants are like a car assembly line, you need all the components to get a "car".

You can usually easily get <"Chempak Sequestered Iron">, but I think a lot of garden fertilisers are in short supply at the moment.

cheers Darrel
Thanks Darrel, I’ll to get some. Either what you suggested or any other FE based fert. Tropica Premium one has it but not sure if it’s in sufficient quantity,
 

Sammy Islam

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I think tropica use some strong chelates already so no need to buy anything new right now, tropica ferts are great. If you increase your dose you should see better results in 2 weeks. You have tropica specialised nutrition? If so the recommended dose is 3 pumps per week in a 50L. So that more than you are currently dosing.
 
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dw1305

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Hi all,
Either what you suggested or any other FE based fert.
You need the right one, we use a <"chelator"> to try and keep the iron plant available. For all the other nutrients it doesn't matter where the ion came from, every K+ ion is the <"same as every other K+ ion">, but for iron some chelators are better in hard water.
Tropica Premium one has it but not sure if it’s in sufficient quantity,
The issue with iron is that nearly all its compounds are insoluble. Once you get above pH7 any ferric iron (Fe) ions (Fe+++) are going to be mopped up really quickly to form iron carbonate and iron hydroxide. You can keep ferrous iron ions (Fe++) in solution at low pH and low oxygen levels, but that doesn't help in the tank.

file-TjRiGNYWdw.png


cheers Darrel
 

Sammy Islam

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Hertfordshire
Hi all, Some-one should have a bottle to hand, the ones we would be interested in would be DTPA and EDDHA.

cheers Darrel
For sure both are needed. From memory and watching youtube i think it has good chelated iron as it's designed around danish hard water? Could be totally wrong seeing as theres multiple versions!
 
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