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Microsorum pteropus "Seeds"

Discussion in 'Plant Help' started by Alex J, 31 Aug 2016.

  1. Alex J

    Alex J Member

    Messages:
    175
    Having just seen a listing for M. pteropus "seeds" on ebay i was just curious if anyone has tried to germinate spores from said plant? I have read it is possible to germinate the spores onto damp soil, must say i'am sceptical as to exactly what you would receive as the listing states you are buying 200 "seeds". Part of me want's to buy some just to try and actually see what, if anything grows:D
     
  2. dean

    dean Member

    Messages:
    943
    Of their cheap maybe worth an experiment
    I've ordered mixed carpet seeds for £2 to play with


    Regards
    Dean
     
  3. Alex J

    Alex J Member

    Messages:
    175
    Im sure it was something like £2.00 , so probably will give it a go .
     
  4. zozo

    zozo Member

    Messages:
    3,916
    It is possible to germinate ferns from spores, but it is a very long time consuming process can take up to a few months. But it's something realy interesting :) a fern has a rather different propagation strategy compared to plants from seeds and goes through several stages. A bit like moss, but not as easy, from spore to gametophyte to new sporophyte... In a nutshell, the spore needs a moist invironment to develop a gametophyte and the gametophyte needs rain drops (splashing water) for fertilization and develop a new sporophyte.

    Here is a vid with the complete explanation of the ferns sporphyte life cycle.


    So you need to put the spores in a constant moist but not wet and rather sterile environment and wait till the gametophyte developes, then you need to spraying/misting it regularly with water, the sperm will travel with the splashing water droplets to and fertilize the egg. After this a new sporophyte will develop. And this can take rather long time before you see a little fern like plant appear. So a lot of patience is required. It is a delicate process, spray often but not to much, not to dry and not to wet and best to use demineralized water, ferts are no good during this process.

    Succes.. Please keep us posted about the development if you do.. :thumbup:

    At the time i'm experimenting with the Lomariopsis cf lineata, which seems to be a gametophyte from a terrestrial fern.. But yet can't find any references if anybody ever managed to let grow a mature ferm from it. Well at the time i'm trying.
     
    Last edited: 1 Sep 2016
  5. dw1305

    dw1305 Expert

    Messages:
    6,237
    Hi all,
    I think it was DNA analysis that found a name, but you are right and so far no-one has managed to convert the gametophyte to the sporophyte, hence the "<cf">.

    The <"Killarney fern" Trichomanes speciosum> is a bit like this in the UK where the gametophyte occurs widely, but the sporophyte "Fern" is now really rare.

    There is an article: "Süßwassertang turns out to be very closely related to Lomariopsis lineata in the Lomariopsidaceae, which looks like this :" <"http://coo.fieldofscience.com/2009_07_01_archive.html">

    Lomariopsis+lineata.jpg

    Scientific reference is Li et al. (2009): <"Identifying a mysterious aquatic fern gametophyte">.

    cheers Darrel
     
    ShawnMac, Mick.Dk and zozo like this.
  6. zozo

    zozo Member

    Messages:
    3,916
    I did also read about the dna research to find out what it probably could be.. As i indeed found out recently what the abreviation cf stands for. Sort of unconfirmed assumption but noboby realy knows for sure. Actualy makes it all even more intersting.. :) Thanks for the scientific paper, have to sit me down for that one and read. :)
    I wonder if it contains a conclusion why it fails to grow a fern out of it?. Is it sterile in some way? Or does it need a mysterious condition nobody discovered yet?

    Lately i fond a picture of somebody who was growing a rather large hump of prothaliums from a Java Needle leave without it growing ferns but only propagating new gametophytes. Ah found it back, this one.. It developed from the rhizome of an adult Java needle leaf and grew on like this submersed.
    13882547_10208875047106439_813233857602477247_n.jpg

    Here is a German flowgrow article which shows a pic from prothaliums developing on the neadle leaf rhizome.
    http://aquascaping.flowgrow.de/aqua...-needle-mini-oder-taiwan-javafarn-was-ist-was

    There is something to that fertilization process from sperm to egg which probably can't easily or maybe not occur submersed.. Probably even emersed it aint easy with some sp. like the Süßwassertang.

    Well i have it here now already for weeks.. :) It stays alive all i can do is spray it gently now and then and wait and wait. And as long it is alive i'll keep on waiting.
    If it's not time that cracks this nut, than probably nothing can.. Also have in a WK hidden away among the moss at a very shaded spot, can't find it back there for now.

    DSCF7612 (Kopie).jpg
    DSCF7613 (Kopie).jpg
     
    Last edited: 1 Sep 2016
    dw1305 likes this.
  7. Alex J

    Alex J Member

    Messages:
    175
    Hi Marcel thanks for the information and video, should have the "seeds" by next week so will follow your advice, i would be very happy just to get one or two viable plants from this but, i'am not holding my breath :) , will let you know how i get on.
     
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  8. zozo

    zozo Member

    Messages:
    3,916
    May i ask where did you order those spores? I looked at ebay but not finding any.

    btw here is a video about growing ferns from spores.. He does show the same as i explained it, but it might still be bit more informational for you.
    It aint difficult, you jsut need to work very sterile and have tons of patience. :)
     
    rebel likes this.
  9. Alex J

    Alex J Member

    Messages:
    175
    Hi Marcel , I don't have the I.T skills to paste the link:oops: but if you type in "live aquatic plant seeds" you will find the seller near the bottom of the first page .I have sent them a message asking if they post to Europe as it was free delivery within the UK but doesn't mention anything about shipping abroad . If you get stuck and you want some i can order them for you and post to you :) Thanks for the video link .
     
    zozo likes this.
  10. zozo

    zozo Member

    Messages:
    3,916
    Thanx Alex, i look into it.. :) I was just curious from where they where comming and else is available. Java fern i got about enough by now. But thanks for the offer. Tho non of them carry spores.. And i'm not sure if the aquatic one ever does.. :)
     
  11. Alex J

    Alex J Member

    Messages:
    175
    I read an article stating that only emersed ferns carry spores . I got reply from seller saying they can post to the EU. Total cost would be roughly €5.00

    Sent from my SM-G925F
     
    zozo likes this.
  12. Mick.Dk

    Mick.Dk Member

    Messages:
    1,268
    Mic. pteropus does defenitely produce spores, when growing emerse and old enough...........LOTS of spores...........:doctor:
     
  13. X3NiTH

    X3NiTH Member

    Messages:
    627
    Zozo, the picture in the above quoted post is exactly what I have mis-identified growing on my bogwood, up till now I had assumed MonoseleniumT. The bogwood used to have extensive growth of M.Pteropus (Windelov) entirely covering it and a mystery growth that always emerged from the same crack in the wood no matter how many times I tried to scrub it off, I completely stripped it of any M.Pt growth and scrubbed it down hard enough to dislodge Nerite eggs from the bogwood before it was used in the scape for my journal. It's growth exploded when the bogwood was exposed to EI and CO₂.

    That tiny insignificant little piece of growth, many times previously removed before it went high tech now looks like this.

    24757341710_c238aaf66a_b.jpg

    It's so prolific in growth that I regularly have to pull clumps from it. Interestingly in relation to your quote it is currently growing what looks like Windelov when only fern Swords are present in the tank which therefore means it can't be trapped plantlets from off growths elsewhere in the tank.

    So germination is happening from this mass. Is it happening under total submersion though, that's the question. Not sure as each week the the tank is emptied to account for 50% system volume WC and that the part of the bogwood where this grows is sometimes exposed to air for a short period of time (enough time to do a water change), never really noted any growth before (If I did it was assumed trapped plantlets from other plants elsewhere in the tank), but a couple of weeks back I did a bit of a tidy up after the water was removed (a little more than usual) and so there was a greater air exposure time before the water went back in. It's now growing a couple of small plants where this growth had definite air exposure for at least 15-20 minutes while I pruned (this area of growth was left unpruned as it was above water at the time), because my fingers were pulling clumps from elsewhere on this growth under water I can't discount mechanical contact with this area even if unpruned.

    Coincidentaly my fern swords are currently sporting spore patches on their undersides directly above the area in question, exposed to air every wc. There may be the possibility of a small fern sword next to the assumed windelov growth but it might just be a trapped sword daughter plantlet from nearby growth, the windelov is definitely sprouting up from the previously misidentified mass. I'll try and get a good picture of it and post it up.
     
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  14. zozo

    zozo Member

    Messages:
    3,916
    @X3NiTH Awsome!! :thumbup: I think i have it too, once bought a large bunch of ferns from a private seller.. And once at home i also saw a lot of prothaliums in it.. At the time i didn't know any beter and thought it was Lomariopsis lineata. But it more likely was from the java fern.. Still have somewhere in one of my tanks but mixed it up and don't know where it is since i also grow Lomariopsis.
     
  15. X3NiTH

    X3NiTH Member

    Messages:
    627
    Here it is taken today, you can see it looks really tatty because I grabbed clumps of the stuff out, it recovers really quickly though, so it's messy only for a few weeks (can't say the same about the BBA though).

    29489378736_74f09903a5_b.jpg

    Here's a closer pic, looks very much like Windelov with it dividing at the tips, I'm going to leave it to grow a little more to see if it definitively becomes Windelov (I have swords in the tank that have on occasion grown leaf shapes that resemble a Hand gloved in a pointed Mitten with the thumb sticking out).

    29414756472_f533247c90_b.jpg

    Here's an almost full tank height pic showing the spore covered swords that shade that corner above the Bogwood.

    29233995130_c11885ec6c_b.jpg

    Closer up on the fern undersides you can see the spores.

    29234013990_4fa2bdedfc_b.jpg

    Taking a closer crop of that pic you can see that the spores resemble Bottlecaps!

    29234018360_8be3cd5ef7_o.jpg

    To get an idea for the conditions this is happening in (since that's a huge variable) the prunings I take from the Bogwood just get distributed around the other tanks for the shrimp to graze on (no added ferts and no added extra CO₂), it persists in the other tanks but stays quite dormant and doesn't spread, it's the EI and CO₂ that makes it grow quickly in my main tank, I'm leaning more on the CO₂ being the main factor as I keep it around the 25-30ppm range, EI is running at one third the standard rate in own rolled all-in-one mix that has 50% less KNO₃, the reason for the reduction was that at full standard content (but still dosed at one third the amount) adding 10 inch sized fish back to the tank after watching my Buce recover well without them, the extra ferts from the fish caused them to melt all over again. The Buce are recovering again for the moment with the fish present and reduced ferts.

    I'm trying to keep to 30ppm CO₂ but not let the pH fall below pH 6.5, the reason for this is that Root rot keeps setting in on the Buce and after finding out that new offshoot Buce growth comes from bacteria getting into the roots causing the division, and seeing that nice bacteria pH relation diagram that Darrel posted a while back got me thinking that sub ph6.5 is not good for Buce roots thinking the bacteria species the roots rely on doesn't do well below pH6.5. So the 20L RO/DI (0TDS) I use for water change each week for this tank has to be remineralised with a lot of salts, currently using 10g of Seachem Alkiline Buffer and 3g of BeeShrimpGH booster in 25L, this gives me roughly KH9 and GH5.5ish (GH dose takes 0TDS up to 170 or so, the KH dose takes it up further to around 230-250), I know that's a lot less mineralised than a lot of folks tap water, but I need to do this remineralisation to keep the pH in range for 30ppm added CO₂. These parameters are all to prevent Buce death, not for the ferns benefit, but hey ho the ferns troop on no matter the parameters they are subjected to.

    :)
     
    Last edited: 7 Sep 2016
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  16. X3NiTH

    X3NiTH Member

    Messages:
    627
    In the past I had taken some of the prunings and placed them on top of some reticulate foam that sat around my inlet in the corner of the tank, the foam was there to diffuse the water disturbance spreading across the surface from the air stone running below it, bubbles popping across the whole surface caused excess splashing, the foam eliminated it greatly.

    16212938319_7b59f62fc2_b.jpg

    16298479418_58339d2494_b.jpg

    Moisture from the bubbled air into the reticulated foam kept it from drying out. It did dry around the edges occasionally but would recover when re moistened, the drying was due to air temperature increase while cooking in the kitchen where tank is situated. Over time this carpeted the entirety of the foam and extended down over the edge and below the water line, (not sure I have a pic of this), the water line growth would have Plantlets stuck in it, this was assumed to be ones that broke free from mother plants elsewhere under the surface and got trapped on the surface in the growth coming from the foam, because I had been misidentifying this as MonoseleniumT I never thought the growth originated there, where now I know different. It was eventually moved from the tank and dumped into another tank as the excess growth at the surface would break off in the current and clog the outlet at the surface level. It formed a nice coherent mat that loosely bonded itself to the foam, it was able to be lifted off like a carpet and didn't hang on to the foam. This above waterline growth withered when stuck back under water in another tank, the shrimps ate the leftovers (presumably). The above waterline growth produced a much tighter compact structure than the under water growth which really spreads out, above the surface its appearance was more like the tight structure of a lichen.

    It's growth on my Bogwood has been massively more prolific than the Fissidens I added on here. I really like the way it looks smothering the Bogwood, forms a really nice mop, doesn't really shed unless I get my hands in there and pull clumps off, anything it does shed tends to get taken up by the filter (really small bits) or gets stuck against it and easily removed. Even though it has spread from a central point it has stayed put on the Bogwood and not spread to and adhered to the other adjacent Bogwood in the tank, (maybe due to a poor adhesion capability in this free floating state and it needs to be trapped in a crevice). The prunings in the shrimp tanks never get exposed to the atmosphere as its on the substrate level and not exposed during a water change, there is one particular clump that has grown a little and it has sword fern Plantlets caught up in it (definitely not Windelov), these may have been caught up in the clump and been grown over (as this tank is where the occasional daughter plant from the main tank ends up), but I can't rule out that they have originated there now that I know what this growth is. I'll maybe keep a closer eye out next wc in that tank and pull the clump out for closer inspection.

    :)
     
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  17. dw1305

    dw1305 Expert

    Messages:
    6,237
    Hi all,
    29414756472_f533247c90_b.jpg

    That looks very much like the new sporophyte growing from the prothallus.

    What I don't know is whether Microsorum pteropus "Windelov" comes true from spores. "Mick.Dk" may know.

    cheers Darrel
     
  18. Mick.Dk

    Mick.Dk Member

    Messages:
    1,268
    Mic. pt. Windeløv is a variation.......but to the best of my knowledge a quite stabel one. So it is likely to grow predominantly identical variants from spores, I would assume.
     
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