Moving to "higher" tech

[RobS84]

Hi everyone,

Although a new member today I'd first like to thank you all for the really informative posts on this forum. So far in a good few years of fishkeeping it's been an incredibly useful resource so thanks.

So I've finally decided to move out of my comfort zone of a reasonably basic planted aquarium not requiring too much time to something I expect to be much more demanding. So this is both my first post, my first journal and my first high-tech setup (if you'd class it as that)... wish me luck!

It started when I decided to upgrade my current Rio125 to one of the oak cabinet aquariums (110cm) that you may have seen at your LFS and having had mixed success with bio-co2 setups decided that it was time for pressurised CO2 (albeit DIY FE style). The upgrade looks like this:

I've been busy buying up some of the sponsors stock this week along with a few other bits:

Other hardware is on order from my LFS:
4xT5's
1x Twin Grobeam 600
1x TMC LED controller
1x External heater
1x New EFX200 external filter + current EFX200 filter

Hardscape is going to be (I think) a combination of wood and rocks, nature aquarium style, wood is currently soaking (or in my old tank soon to be stripped) and rocks arrived today although I'm not too happy with them and going to see if they can be exchanged...

Substrate is as you can see, but I'll also be recycling the Ecocomplete from my existing tank to bulk out the ADA aquasoil.

Plants are TBC, although will probably re-use some of the current ones if I can get them looking healthy again:

(sorry I really should have cleaned the glass first...)
I'll also be trying EI dry Ferts for the first time. Again thanks for the great posts/articles on here for that!

Fish at least to start with will be the current inhabitants, including the home reared Kribs although do have the aspiration of trying discus for the first time too, hence the RO unit you can also see in the picture of kit so far.

That's it for now, but as I progress I'm sure I'll have questions, and more questions, but though I'd start by giving a little before I start the taking.

 

[Ady34]

Hi there and pleased you've finally registered and taken the plunge into high tech!
Looks like your accumulating all the right bits and pieces and have some exciting times ahead

I noticed your reusing some of your existing substrate which makes me think your stripping the rio 125 down to set the new tank up. Im sure you already realise this but a little bit of precautionary advice just in case. Your new ADA substrate leaches ammonia so will need cycling before adding your current livestock.....of course you may already be aware of this and are planning on keeping the fish in the old tank bare bottomed until the new one is ready. Some filter media 'borrowed' from your existing filter for your new filter may help speed up the cycling process a little.

What rocks did you order, and why are you not happy? Not what you expected, unsuitable sizes?

Anyway, good luck and keep us posted.
Cheerio,
Ady.

 

[krazypara3165]

Cracking start! And im looking forward to seeing discus in there too! Hwve you kept discus before?

Oh, and welcome!

 

[Tomfish]

Hello, I set up my first high tech tank about 8 months ago and I've had a few ups and lots of downs along the way. The one issue that stands up as critical (as you've no doubt read) is Co2. I certainly found it to be a subtle and fickle process and the higher the light, the more bang on your Co2 has to be. Are you planning on using all of that T5 fire power? I would certainly suggest using only 2 of those, especially to begin with. How are you getting the co2 into the tank? good luck

 

[RobS84]

Thanks for all the input.

Yes I had read references to the ADA soil giving off ammonia for the first couple of weeks and what you suggested Ady is almost what I intend to do. I have in fact borrowed a black Rio125 a colleague has spare and will run this with my mature filter, current light bar, bare-bottomed as a temporary life support for the inhabitants. New filter already has a blend of new + mature bio media in it and spent a week so far running on the current 125.

How much is the ammonia an issue for the plants? Will I need to be changing lots of water frequently for the first few weeks for the plants / anti-algae benefit? The RO installation should help with this if needed.

Rocks turned out to be a new stock batch that differ somewhat in appearance from the photos on the website, I initially thought a packing mistake but apparently not. I'm going to have a better look at them over the weekend and decide if I'll return or not. They are 12kg of Baltic Rock, although arrived looking much lighter than I'd seen on here and on the vendors site.

With regards to Discus, no this will also be a first for me, tried a few other dwarf cichlids (Kribs, Rams) but not Discus. A quick question there if I remember correctly the CO2 level generally accepted as standard is 30ppm right? Is this still OK with Discus and more sensitive fish? If not what is recommended and what solution should I use in my drop checker for this?

With regards to lighting, I'd be pleased to accept your guidance there... I had intended on running the lighting phased across the day. LED ramp to full, LED + 2x T5(2hrs), LED + 4xT5 (2-3hrs), and then back down in reverse. Was probably planning to leave the 2nd twin T5 out all together until the plants are getting established and would need the extra light. Probably aim for an 8hr period from LEDs reaching 80-100%, and extend viewing hours with longer ramp-up/down times. Does that sound about right?

To start with I bought the Neutro 200 CO2 diffuser set from AquaEssentials and have a reg + solenoid on it's way from co2 supermarket on eBay. Still need a drop checker.

 

[krazypara3165]

Like you, ive thrown myself in the deeo end too being new to planted tanks and discus. Your discus should be fine with 30ppm of co2 although i constantly run an air stone just to be on the safe side. The one thing that i would strongly reccomend is that you buy your discus from a good supplier. Several friends have bought tuem from their local fish store and because they are kept on a centralised system and not cared for properly they didnt seem to cope in a planted tank. If you give me a rough area where you live i can reccomend some quality breeders.

 

[Ady34]

Thanks for all the input.

Yes I had read references to the ADA soil giving off ammonia for the first couple of weeks and what you suggested Ady is almost what I intend to do. I have in fact borrowed a black Rio125 a colleague has spare and will run this with my mature filter, current light bar, bare-bottomed as a temporary life support for the inhabitants. New filter already has a blend of new + mature bio media in it and spent a week so far running on the current 125.

How much is the ammonia an issue for the plants? Will I need to be changing lots of water frequently for the first few weeks for the plants / anti-algae benefit? The RO installation should help with this if needed.


With regards to lighting, I'd be pleased to accept your guidance there... I had intended on running the lighting phased across the day. LED ramp to full, LED + 2x T5(2hrs), LED + 4xT5 (2-3hrs), and then back down in reverse. Was probably planning to leave the 2nd twin T5 out all together until the plants are getting established and would need the extra light. Probably aim for an 8hr period from LEDs reaching 80-100%, and extend viewing hours with longer ramp-up/down times. Does that sound about right?

Hi there,
perfect about the filter medias.

With reference to your question regarding ammonia. Ammonia is readily utilised by plants, however in new systems in particular, the plants cannot process the high levels of ammonia present from the leaching of active soils as they are undergoing a submerged acclimation period themselves. During this period the plants are also adding to the level of organic waste present in the aquarium through deterioration of older emersed leaves and trying to develop new growth. The main issue here is that the high levels of ammonia that isnt being used up, and the added organic waste as a by product from the plants, all suck the oxygen from the water which impacts the development of the aerobic bacteria needed to facilitate the nitrogen cycle process in your filter system. This is why in the start up period we carry out large and frequent water changes to maintain water quality by diluting the organic waste which suffocates the plants, and by diluting the high levels of ammonia to help the filter cycle. As everything adapts and matures the plants when growing healthily act as filters themselves and help maintain water quality.
I'd say in the early stages, if planting from the outset you should be looking at trying to do every day 50% or more water changes for the first week, down to every other day in the second week, third day in the fourth week and then down to your once a week regular maintenance schedule. Maintaining water quality helps the plants, which in turn keeps algae at bay. The key also is to ensure good levels of co2 and fertilisers and appropriate distribution. The other key is lighting.
Your lighting to me seems excessive. I've never used the grobeams so somebody with personal experience may be better placed to comment, but I would think 2 of these would be more than ample by themselves and would provide the versatility to help in co2 provision.
4x t5, which I'm guessing is the provided light with the set up and will be tubes of equivalent length for the tank, would also be excessive on their own, especially in a new set up. You suggest using only 2 t5 tubes with a ramp up and ramp down period from the grobeams, this would work, but I'd be inclined to switch off the grobeams once the t5s have come on so as not to overdo the lighting intensity. The only benefit of the t5's, if the grobeams provide sufficient light, may be in the colour rendition for your viewing. I would also start with a maximum 8 hour photoperiod, which includes the ramp up ramp down phase. This too can be increased once the plants have acclimated and show healthy growth.
More light means more co2, ferts and ideal distribution are needed which reduces the margins for error. It's much easier to optimise co2 by keep lighting lower, this way you can get the plants healthy first and then adjust everything up later if wanted.

Hope that helps a little.
Cheerio,
Ady.

 

[RobS84]

Like you, ive thrown myself in the deeo end too being new to planted tanks and discus. Your discus should be fine with 30ppm of co2 although i constantly run an air stone just to be on the safe side. The one thing that i would strongly reccomend is that you buy your discus from a good supplier. Several friends have bought tuem from their local fish store and because they are kept on a centralised system and not cared for properly they didnt seem to cope in a planted tank. If you give me a rough area where you live i can reccomend some quality breeders.

Thanks. I'm down in Berkshire, however do get up to Preston on business from time to time, Bedford too, and I have family in Worcestershire, so any suggestions of recommended suppliers/breeders near those areas would be useful too.

I'd say in the early stages, if planting from the outset you should be looking at trying to do every day 50% or more water changes for the first week, down to every other day in the second week, third day in the fourth week and then down to your once a week regular maintenance schedule. Maintaining water quality helps the plants, which in turn keeps algae at bay. The key also is to ensure good levels of co2 and fertilisers and appropriate distribution. The other key is lighting.
Your lighting to me seems excessive. I've never used the grobeams so somebody with personal experience may be better placed to comment, but I would think 2 of these would be more than ample by themselves and would provide the versatility to help in co2 provision.
4x t5, which I'm guessing is the provided light with the set up and will be tubes of equivalent length for the tank, would also be excessive on their own, especially in a new set up. You suggest using only 2 t5 tubes with a ramp up and ramp down period from the grobeams, this would work, but I'd be inclined to switch off the grobeams once the t5s have come on so as not to overdo the lighting intensity. The only benefit of the t5's, if the grobeams provide sufficient light, may be in the colour rendition for your viewing. I would also start with a maximum 8 hour photoperiod, which includes the ramp up ramp down phase. This too can be increased once the plants have acclimated and show healthy growth.
More light means more co2, ferts and ideal distribution are needed which reduces the margins for error. It's much easier to optimise co2 by keep lighting lower, this way you can get the plants healthy first and then adjust everything up later if wanted.

Hope that helps a little.
Cheerio,
Ady.

Thanks Ady, very useful info. On those initial routine guidelines do you also dose EI Ferts from day one too? I'd be inclined to, combined with the frequent water changes, however this is not what I've seen in literature from Tropica.

The combination of lighting is entirely my doing, however seems I may have bought more than I needed?
As you suggest T5 + LED was for colour rendition for viewing and slightly more T5 biased for initial cost saving. The TMS growbeam guidelines I've seen in a shop brochure suggested using 2x tiles + 2 strips for a tank of my size, this made me think just the two strips, chosen mainly for aesthetics (ripple and dawn dusk cycles), would be underpowered. Maybe I didn't look hard enough, but I also couldn't many accounts of peoples personal experience with them either or how they compared to t5 output. Interestingly my LFS has just set up a new scape - planted last weekend, identical glass to mine, with 2 x 1500ND tiles and 4xT5's. Guess this also influenced my decision of 4 x T5s, but it will be interesting to see how that gets on. I guess the old rule of >2WPG also encouraged the additional pair of tubes.

I'll certainly be following your advice tho, not only does it seem logical wrt margin for error, but your set-ups look stunning so I'm inclined to believe you know what you're talking about! and as an extra bonus it'll keep the running costs a bit lower

 

[Ady34]

Thanks Ady, very useful info. On those initial routine guidelines do you also dose EI Ferts from day one too? I'd be inclined to, combined with the frequent water changes, however this is not what I've seen in literature from Tropica.

Hi Rob,
I'd always be inclined do dose from the outset. If tropica suggest a period of no dosing I'm sure it's based on the theory that the plants arrive with a good nutrient store so its unnecessary to dose from the outset. The general consensus within the forum is why take the chance of a shortfall? If the plants begin to grow in earnest and there are no nutrients present this will lead to health issues and a huge set back......I'd just dose as per the instructions regardless of dilution through your large frequent water changes as EI is based on an excess to feed the maximum potential growth rates of unlimited light and co2, so there will be enough still present....if unsure you can just add a proportionate amount of macro or trace after each water change. The huge financial savings of buying dry salts means there are no real monetary reasons not to dose from the outset also.
I'm sure being around for so long you will have read the excellent EI tutorial written by Clive (Ceg4048), but if not its a must!
EI DOSING USING DRY SALTS | UK Aquatic Plant Society

The combination of lighting is entirely my doing, however seems I may have bought more than I needed?
As you suggest T5 + LED was for colour rendition for viewing and slightly more T5 biased for initial cost saving. The TMS growbeam guidelines I've seen in a shop brochure suggested using 2x tiles + 2 strips for a tank of my size, this made me think just the two strips, chosen mainly for aesthetics (ripple and dawn dusk cycles), would be underpowered. Maybe I didn't look hard enough, but I also couldn't many accounts of peoples personal experience with them either or how they compared to t5 output. Interestingly my LFS has just set up a new scape - planted last weekend, identical glass to mine, with 2 x 1500ND tiles and 4xT5's. Guess this also influenced my decision of 4 x T5s, but it will be interesting to see how that gets on. I guess the old rule of >2WPG also encouraged the additional pair of tubes.

I'll certainly be following your advice tho, not only does it seem logical wrt margin for error, but your set-ups look stunning so I'm inclined to believe you know what you're talking about! and as an extra bonus it'll keep the running costs a bit lower

No doubt it can be done, there are many tanks successfully ran on very high lighting which achieve rapid results. Most of the time it's experience and understanding the principles of light, co2, fert and distribution relationships and putting them into practice. These skills come in time and no doubt with the gained knowledge of past failures. For me it makes more sense to succeed slowly than fail fast. Keeping lighting less intense may be a slower process, but it enables you to manage co2 easier, giving more forgiveness if something is not optimal, be it concentrations of co2 or distribution around the tank. Once you've gained satisfaction and encouragement from a healthy green algae free tank then its easier to push the boundaries further as you have the knowledge to fall back on.
Also when setting up a tank to house existing fish, which you'll probably be keen to transfer, its best to give yourself some extra leeway with co2, building up slowly the levels of everything and observing the fish for signs of stress. If you go the maximum light route, you also need maximum, sometimes over the maximum concentrations of co2 for livestock which can have fatal consequences.
Another way to make things easier while dialling in the pressurised co2, is to utilise liquid carbon as an alternative carbon source. It's a good way of covering the bases with less risk to fauna and gives you more time to get things spot on gas wise
Thank you for the compliment also, everything I've learned is through this forum and applying the theories suggested. Trial and error has shown me that lower lighting intensities, combined with good co2, ferts and distribution is the starting point in healthy plants.....I still havnt perfected higher light faster growth rates yet though so there's plenty still to learn
Cheerio,
Ady.

 

[krazypara3165]

Id strongly reccomend visiting steve punchard of punchard discus on the way to preston (hes 20 mins away in blackburn) hes won several competitions with his fish and they are of an incredably high standard. Him and his assistant jordan are also happy to take people round their breeding room as well to see the rest of the stock. Google punchard discus for his website!

 

[sdlra]

good luck and look forward to further pics and updates

 

[RobS84]

Quick update:

Spent the weekend moving the current livestock to a temporary home, installing my RO system with storage tank, stripping down the old tank and cleaning bits to be re-used. This week I've had chance to try a few layouts dry and have now got the hard-scape in and the aquarium in place. More plants now ordered for delivery on friday so more updates that will hopefully be more interesting next week. For now here's the hard-scape...

 

[scapegoat]

Nice layout looking forward to seeing it planted!

 

[jack-rythm]

Wow cool wood scape! Nice shapes and focal point! Would look pretty cool if you replaced the slate for mini landscape rock? Would just give a little more detail yo the scape maybe? Looking forward to seeing it grown in

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[RobS84]

Thanks for the kind comments on the hard-scape.


Yes agree some other rocks would look a bit nicer, but a combination of impatience and cost directed me this route. I did order some Baltic rock in the first place expecting it to turn up like the leopard stone here, but the batch had changed and it actually turned up as per the new web images from aqua essentials, but I wasn't really happy with it as wanted something darker. Service from aqua essentials was great and were very understanding with regards to returns.

In the end I decided Slate would work quite nicely and found some at the local garden centre for ~£10 for probably about 50kg's broke it down to smaller pieces with the SDS hammer and washed and soaked it, testing some bits in 0TDS RO water for a while to understand if it altered chemistry or not or by what degree. Turns out about a week only increased TDS by about 12ppm compared to 7ppm with (old) Ccocomplete substrate. My conclusions were that it would be OK.

Plants are now in, again courtesy of Aqua Essentials and again a very good service and quality of plants. This combined with some of my existing plants:

These were taken about 4-5 days after initial planting.

A few learnings so far for the benefit of other newbies:
1) if starting again I would have used the ADA powder for the foreground, the roots of the HC and elochlaris SP are smaller than I expected and they may stay rooted initially a little better (water changes and hands in the tank uproot them easily if your not careful).
2) As mentioned in numerous posts circulation is even more important than I gave it credit, initially I was only running the single filter and spray bar but very quickly brown algae was appearing on the glass the opposite side - double it up and the problem disappeared as quickly as it arrived. (although this forced me to engineer up a quick filter solution for the old tank for livestock.
3) Crypts don't like a change in temperature! I filled the tank from my RO storage tank in my garage via hose + some jerry cans that were at temperature, the cold water from the garage left the final fill at 10deg C, and I think i'm blaming this on the Crypt melt you can see in the photos. Positive is that they melted and re-grew quickly, so now have small new growth instead of this.
4) Although Ady warned me I didn't expect ammonia and Nitrite levels to be as high as they are for so long. I thought two filters with a 50:50 mix of mature and new biological media in them would sort it out in a few days, not so! 1.5 weeks in and I'm still not ready for fish!

Hope you like it!

 

[ceg4048]

Hi Rob,
I too think this is an excellent effort. But I do agree that the texture of the rocks are no the best. What you could do is to cover them with some type of moss, like Anchor moss, or Xmas moss. Maybe put some on the top surfaces and let them grow down to the faces.

Crypts do not care about temperature changes. When you see them respond in this way to any environmental change it is telling you that crypts do not like poor CO2.

If I were you, I would strongly consider not putting in fishes for at least 6-8 weeks. That is about the length of time it will take to fully mature the tank. It does not really matter just because some test kit reading gives you numbers that you like. Test kits do not determine the environmental infrastructure of the tank.

This time allows you to learn how to inject CO2. CO2 is the most difficult skill to achieve in a planted tank, and already your crypts are telling you that you need better technique. You may have to drive the injection rate to very high levels which are toxic to the fish in order to solve a problem or in order to mitigate symptoms while you figure things out. In fact, using very high and toxic CO2 levels is the best way to start your tank and it will help to cycle the tank as well as grow things like mosses faster without having to use strong lighting.

The speed at which diatoms attacked indicates excessive lighting. So this is a bad combination that can ruin your excellent preparation.

Cheers,

 

[Ady34]

Hi Rob,
what lighting combination did you go for in the end? And what timings/photoperiod are you currently running?
Cheerio,
Ady.

 

[RobS84]

Hi Rob,
what lighting combination did you go for in the end? And what timings/photoperiod are you currently running?
Cheerio,
Ady.

All the items previously discussed were all ordered at the time of writing so that's the hardware, although the grobeam 600's still haven't arrived yet.
Currently using 2xT5's for 7hrs and the additional 2xT5's for 2 hours 'mid-day' blast - although only introduced this in the last few days after a week or so of things seeming OK and the crypts showing new healthy growth after the melt.

What you could do is to cover them with some type of moss, like Anchor moss, or Xmas moss. Maybe put some on the top surfaces and let them grow down to the faces.

I had considered something like this and was actually hoping that some of the HC might grow over the tops of the rocks - is this likely to happen? I'm guessing they won't anchor but thought they may extend over the top?
Alternatively your suggestion of moss is a good one. How's best to get it attached to start with without disturbing the rocks to tie it on?

Crypts do not care about temperature changes. When you see them respond in this way to any environmental change it is telling you that crypts do not like poor CO2.

Interesting - I thought the CO2 was quite stable. the crypts came from my other tank low tech, no Co2 and were in reasonable health and within a few days of planting and filling they melted pretty quick. CO2 was started as soon as it was filled and had an overshoot on the 30ppm target to begin with then maybe a little undershoot. Unless this is again down to the circulation as they were mainly planted on the side without a filter for week 1.

 

[ceg4048]

I had considered something like this and was actually hoping that some of the HC might grow over the tops of the rocks - is this likely to happen? I'm guessing they won't anchor but thought they may extend over the top?

Yes it's very possible. Either way will work. It's just a matter of preference really.

Alternatively your suggestion of moss is a good one. How's best to get it attached to start with without disturbing the rocks to tie it on?

Drop the water level and use gel type super glue to attach the moss to the rock.

Interesting - I thought the CO2 was quite stable.

It's not a matter of stability but a matter of concentration level.

the crypts came from my other tank low tech

OK, well your low tech tank was not CO2 enriched but was the lighting level the same as it is in this tank? Light intensity is directly related to CO2 uptake demand, so the crypt determined that the CO2 was not commensurate with the light intensity in that particular tank. It does not matter where a plant comes from. It only matters where it goes. You need to get into the habit of always linking light with CO2 demand because the two are intricately related. Sometimes, the crypt leaves grow back and are fine, sometimes not. The fundamental structure of the leafy must change when the plant senses a change in the combination of light and CO2. If there are no fish in the tank then add more CO2. You are not limited to a green dropchecker in this case. If you need to adjust flow then that's OK too but you need to pump as much CO2 as you can while you have the window of opportunity. Only worry about green DC when you're forced to return the fish to the tank, otherwise there are no limits. Lowering the light intensity magnifies the effect of any improvements you make, even if it's only temporary. Using higher intensities magnifies all your mistakes.

Cheers,

 

[Lindy]

How about some clear suction cups to hold on your spray bar? I just got rid of my black ones and it lookes much better.