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My humble start - need plan advice
- Thread starter swyftfeet
- Start date
Im gonna say something I never thought id say, but I might be tempted to just keep it running at full blast, this way there should at least not be a lack of light. Since your light is mid range and your tank is deep. Its better to have plants AND algae growing than neither, in my opinion. Especially with such a limited budget where going out and replacing plants if they die is not an option. Then we can always turn it down later..
Seems like a decent complete fertilizer is the main thing to try then doesnt it?
(Edit: Still not more than 12 hours a day though, just so theres no misunderstandings there)
Seems like a decent complete fertilizer is the main thing to try then doesnt it?
(Edit: Still not more than 12 hours a day though, just so theres no misunderstandings there)
I like where your going, apparently my mollies are catholic I collected another 24 on sunday morning. I'll get about $0.66 per in store credit so I can buy some ferts here shortly.
Zeus.
Fertz Meister
Well the miracle grow I have added to my copy of the IFCalculator which is based on 1gram per 100litres dose
No data on quickfeed
But @MichaelJ is correct the Nicog fert is the best value all in one fert in the world ATM as far as I am aware- but like the World series its only in the USA
MichaelJ
Member
Hi @Hufsa, Right, No, we haven't established anything of that sort... I didn't dig too deep on this one... but it looks pretty bright to me and the panel is pretty high intensity and the specs on the panel suggests its pretty high powered. That said, it's really, really hard to error on the side of not enough light in a low tech tank.
Cheers,
Michael
MichaelJ
Member
Thanks @Zeus. as always...Well the miracle grow I have added to my copy of the IFCalculator which is based on 1gram per 100litres dose
View attachment 181319View attachment 181320
No data on quickfeed
But @MichaelJ is correct the Nicog fert is the best value all in one fert in the world ATM as far as I am aware- but like the World series its only in the USA
@swyftfeet, How much do you dose and how often?
Cheers,
Michael
Is this the Miracle-Gro you are using as fertilizer? If yes, it is adding Nitrogen mostly as Urea, as well as Copper. I wouldn't use this in a tank, especially one like your which is not yet stabilized.
Are you really adding two dozen fish to a new and unstable tank with nitrites in the water column?
I believe he is running some sort ofAre you really adding two dozen fish to a new and unstable tank with nitrites in the water column?
Ah! Good to hear that!I believe he is running some sort ofpuppyguppy mill in a seperate nursery tank for extra funds. In which case luckily not
Yeah I have 3 tanks in the house.
first tank is a fluval flex 15 that has 3 mollies and a dwarf gourami.
tank 2 is the NICU which houses as many molly fry that I can harvest before the gourami eats em.
tank 3 is my roadside rescue budget dumpster fire that we are talking about here. no fish, still cycling. and the version of miracle grow were talkign about had none of those trace elements just the big 3.
micheal,Now, I wouldn't take it that far...
Ok, kidding aside... @swyftfeet , I didn't read the whole thread in excruciating details, but it looks to me that you might want to do a couple if things:
1. Add more fast growing plants in the easy catagory - it will just help everything get going... Its almost a bullet proof approach - if later on you get bored with certain plants you can always give them away or bring them back to the LFS (they will take back everything except for duckweed
2. Lower your light - since your not injecting CO2 there is usually no way your plants will thrive under such high light - at least not until you get a nice blanket of floating plants... (which is kind of like lowering the intensity anyway...).
3. Opt for a complete fertilizer solution such a Nilocg - which is readily available in the States. Make sure you dose consistently. I cant't find the exact content of MicracleGro 4-8-4 or
QuickFeed 12-9-6 so I do not know what your getting by the amount your adding to your 30 US Gallon / 120 L tank, but its likely not enough of anything. Perhaps our residential Fertilizer expert the all-mighty @Zeus. knows?
Also, what is your water source? If your in New York and using tap water you may be a bit low on Mg.... (I know the Ca:Mg ratio out there is magical if your into bagel-making
Your frogbit certainly look like they are suffering from deficiencies - the unhealthy looking leaves and the very long roots are a tell-tale sign they are short on essential nutrients (the long roots by itself if not necessarily bad, but the combo is... the plant dont have a reason to allocate resources to build long roots if nutrients are plentiful). They can actually take quite a bit of moisture on the their leaves as long as they are not forcible submerged for a longer duration of time - mine are very healthy and are always quite wet (picture below). Frogbits are not CO2 limited (they have access to 400ppm of CO2 from the air), so you know its fertilizer deficiencies, in all likelihood, when they do not thrive. They suck up a lot of NPK. In any event, @dw1305 might be able to pin down the nutrient deficiency (I am still trying to figure out how you make the determination of what nutrient is in short supply by looking at the leaves...).
View attachment 181299
Cheers,
Michael
Amazon product ASIN B07MFMKCCKwhich package do I go with???? Theres so many options... my tap water has 180TDS roughly
It shows the micros has the Fe on it, but then theres one with iron too, I dont get it. does it have to do with the form of iron? I read somewhere, sorry been going down the rabbit hole too far and cant remmeber where, but there are like 4 forms of iron and depending one what your water parameters are you need to choose the right one or it will precipitate out? EDTA or something?
Also can this miracleGro stuff go bad? Its prob 3 years old. I had it stored in a cabinet in the shed so no UV but its def gone through some freeze cycles. theres no funk on the bottom of the bottle and Its very clear and not cloudy at all.
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MichaelJ
Member
Hi @swyftfeet Well, since we don't know exactly what you tap water is made up of lets just guess that its sort of like NYC water... If you're not entirely ready for the individual salt (dont worry, you can do that later...), I would just go with the Thrive+ and some GH Booster (for the additional minerals, especially Mg) and follow the dosing instructions, you may want to add a bit more of the Thrive+ than suggested - it would be great if you could measure your GH (using such test kit as the API GH/KH test kit), then we can dial in how much GH booster you (probably) really need. Of course, these pre-mixed bottles are nowhere near as cheap in the long run as rolling your own with the individual salts but it will work.
Also what livestock do you keep or plan to keep?
Cheers,
Michael
I’m in the WWTP column
Hardness is 120 sh. TDS is 180sh
Hufsa was kind enough to work the calculator for me and suggested dry salt I think it closely matches your suggestions!
EI BASED NPK + CSM+B
IRON (FE) CHELATE 11% DTPA
MAGNESIUM SULFATE | MGSO4
I would like to better understand why someone would choose the one form of iron over the other.
For stocking I’m thinking:
Dwarf gourami hopefull a mating pair
Celestial pearl dannios
And Cory cats
EI BASED NPK + CSM+B
IRON (FE) CHELATE 11% DTPA
MAGNESIUM SULFATE | MGSO4
I would like to better understand why someone would choose the one form of iron over the other.
For stocking I’m thinking:
Dwarf gourami hopefull a mating pair
Celestial pearl dannios
And Cory cats
MichaelJ
Member
Oh, so you're taking fertilizer advice from a Scandinavian Mummitroll now?
Totally just kidding here.... ( @Hufsa you know I am joking, of course).Yes, that blend, if done appropriately would work too... Thrive+ and some additional MGSO4 will fit the bill as well.
I am no expert, but think of the chelate, such as EDTA, as a carrier or agent that enables bio-availability of the Iron under different conditions mainly the pH... (some chelates are highly photosensitive as well) Its really nothing to worry about unless your pH is quite high (say > 7.5). Anecdotally, I had nicely growing plants dosing EDTA Fe at 0.5 ppm/wk at 7.4-7.6 pH without any of sign of Fe deficiency.
Nice choices!
Cheers,
Michael
Yes the Mummitroll was requested to have a look 😁
You said your PH is around 7.8, which is why I felt DTPA iron would be a good choice to supplement the CSMB.
Your water is relatively hard based on the report, so should not need extra calcium, which is why I didnt go for a GH booster.
Mg was ok-ish from the tapwater report, but theres a potential benefit to adding a little bit of this every now and then just to make sure we've got smooth sailing, so thats why the MgSO4 is there 😊
Iron doesnt like to stay in the water column, it wants to precipitate out along with something else, especially its best buddy phosphate. Once it is precipitated out, it wont be available to the plant unless it finds its way deep down in the substrate and is cracked open again by anaerobic bacteria.
Therefore we have different chelates as a wrapping/package, to make sure the iron doesnt run away.
Think of chelates as a little gift package in which we deliver iron (or another nutrient) to the plant.
Gluconate is like iron wrapped in a tasty sweet, its easy to eat but breaks down very fast, especially in high PH.
EDTA is a common packaging for ph up to around 6.5, but loses its effectiveness beyond that and some have concerns about EDTA's role in the watercolumn.
DTPA is a solid packaging for slightly higher PH, but also takes a bit more effort for the plant to open.
EDDHA is an even stronger package but will tint your water pink at higher doses and is also slightly harder for the plant to use.
Hopefully this makes the whole chelate business make a bit more sense
Edit: One more infographic thing to supplement the good one Michael posted
You said your PH is around 7.8, which is why I felt DTPA iron would be a good choice to supplement the CSMB.
Your water is relatively hard based on the report, so should not need extra calcium, which is why I didnt go for a GH booster.
Mg was ok-ish from the tapwater report, but theres a potential benefit to adding a little bit of this every now and then just to make sure we've got smooth sailing, so thats why the MgSO4 is there 😊
Iron doesnt like to stay in the water column, it wants to precipitate out along with something else, especially its best buddy phosphate. Once it is precipitated out, it wont be available to the plant unless it finds its way deep down in the substrate and is cracked open again by anaerobic bacteria.
Therefore we have different chelates as a wrapping/package, to make sure the iron doesnt run away.
Think of chelates as a little gift package in which we deliver iron (or another nutrient) to the plant.
Gluconate is like iron wrapped in a tasty sweet, its easy to eat but breaks down very fast, especially in high PH.
EDTA is a common packaging for ph up to around 6.5, but loses its effectiveness beyond that and some have concerns about EDTA's role in the watercolumn.
DTPA is a solid packaging for slightly higher PH, but also takes a bit more effort for the plant to open.
EDDHA is an even stronger package but will tint your water pink at higher doses and is also slightly harder for the plant to use.
Hopefully this makes the whole chelate business make a bit more sense
Edit: One more infographic thing to supplement the good one Michael posted
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MichaelJ
Member
Yeah and a good look you took
Hi @swyftfeet ,
Yes, with that high pH it might be a good idea to supplement with another source of Iron to hedge your bets... Seachem Iron - which is Iron Gluconate - is also a good option. I dose that (0.25ppm) once mid-week in addition to my EDTA based Iron.
Looking at the water report, you're Ca and probably Mg levels out of the tap are fine - and you would get an additional boost of Mg from Thrive+.
Thanks for filling in the blanks on the Chelate business @Hufta 👍 ... I am still kind of struggling with the precipitating bit in terms of how much it actually impacts the situation in a planted aquarium. Are the plants able to mop up the iron faster than it becomes unavailable due to adverse pH conditions... did anyone study this, I wonder...
Cheers,
Michael
well I just did a 30% water change and my Nitrites are still beyond the colormetric scale. Purple purple.
I did throw the NPK miracleGro in a clean bit of tap water and its nice and light blue, so that isnt doing it.
My bacteria is still way out of whack. middle of cycle. CFO/CEO says I can order the full dry ferts on the 17th. so hopefully my plants can run on the anemic NPK that I am feeding them till then.
I did throw the NPK miracleGro in a clean bit of tap water and its nice and light blue, so that isnt doing it.
My bacteria is still way out of whack. middle of cycle. CFO/CEO says I can order the full dry ferts on the 17th. so hopefully my plants can run on the anemic NPK that I am feeding them till then.
