• You are viewing the forum as a Guest, please login (you can use your Facebook, Twitter, Google or Microsoft account to login) or register using this link: Log in or Sign Up

Mysterious issue with multiple plants

Zoefish

Member
Joined
28 Jan 2023
Messages
25
Location
Seattle, Washington USA
Hello! I've been having a worsening issue with growth in multiple plant species in my tank that has been going on since about September. I've tried a number of things to resolve the issue and I'm basically at the end of my rope. I would be extremely grateful if anyone can offer me insight into this!

Across multiple species of plants I'm having issues that look like nutrient deficiencies, but I've tested the levels of nitrate, potassium and iron and found them all to be normal/high. I've also been dosing EI throughout this process (at first I was dosing Thrive according to package instructions, then in response to apparent deficiencies I started adding macronutrients on top of that 3x/week, then I switched to another fertilizer by NilocG that is also designed to be used with EI. This past week I haven't been dosing at all since I found the potassium levels to be at 50 ppm and nitrates around 40 after my weekly water change, so I am letting the plants use up some of those nutrients before I start dosing again. I had my light on the lowest setting without realizing and I attribute the nutrient accumulation to this). Despite high levels of nutrients the problem is just getting worse and worse.

My hygrophila pinnatifida which was previously growing great for me started getting necrotic pinholes in the lower leaves. This progressively advances up the plant and at this point almost all of it has disintegrated. My stargrass also gets holes, but not round holes, in the lower leaves. The lower leaves on my alternathera reineckii disintegrate and the whole plant looks generally pale/warped. My Brazilian pennywort grows fast but sometimes the newer leaves are chlorotic with green veins and yellow leaves. I've also seen rotting lower leaves on my Persicaria and nymphoides Taiwan. And my Amazon frogbit just started getting pinholes, which may be related to me increasing the flow in the tank recently. I could keep going on and on, I am getting fast growth but hardly any of the plants are really thriving.

The tank is a 22 gallon long with CO2 injection at about 2 bubbles/second and the drop checker is lightish yellow green. This has been at different levels throughout the time I've been having these issues. I did at one point check my CO2 with the pH change method, I don't remember the actual results of that but I had found that it was actually higher than it needed to be- I think almost 2 pH points difference between the gassed/degassed water so I decreased it. The pH is about 6.5 at the moment, kH around 80 and GH around 150. I do a 50% water change every week. One thing that did change around the time these issues started happening is that I gradually increased the kH/GH of the water from basically nothing to what it is now, since I added some Endlers to the tanks and they prefer hard water. Ammonia and nitrite readings are consistently 0. The tank has been set up since last April. The substrate is ADA Amazonia that is as old as the tank, with some UNS controsoil mixed in. There are also some Fluorish root tabs in there which I added after the deficiency symptoms started appearing. The light is a Chihiros wrgb II 90.

The first thing I tried when these issues began was increasing my fertilizers. That didn't work, so I increased the flow in the tank. I switched out for a more powerful filter (currently it is an Eheim something), and added small pumps at the corners of the tank to bounce the flow around in a large circle. I was hoping this had worked so I went ahead and added some new plants a week or so ago, and the new plants immediately (within a day or 2) started showing distress as well. I believe this has occurred too quickly for nutrient deficiencies to be the culprit. The water wisteria I planted has some sort of black/brown precipitate (?) on the lower leaves (or maybe just algae), and is also getting holes in the lower leaves. On the upper leaves the veins have turned bright yellow and the leaf remains green. The new hygrophila pinnatifida I planted has already developed the brown round spots on lower leaves that will develop into pinholes. One of the crypts I planted had totally black roots when I accidentally uprooted it. So now I am thinking that the issue is something that is present in the water, and not something that's absent. My first thought was to remove some suspicious gravel that was not necessarily aquarium safe (various types of quartz, opalite and some "aquarium rocks" I got off Amazon). However, I went through my records and found that the beginning of these issues actually predates the gravel. I do have a large piece of wood in the tank that I found on the beach. I don't know what kind of wood it is. However, this wood has been in the tank from the beginning and the hygrophila pinnatifida was previously growing very well attached to it.

The livestock includes a group of a couple Endlers and some guppies, a couple Amano shrimp and some cherry shrimp. I previously had some Mystery snails that developed holes in their shells presumably as a result of the acidic water. I've also had a couple of mysterious disappearances of Endlers since I moved them over to this tank, and I lost a couple of the cherry shrimp as well. Not sure if that is related or not.

I will probably have a mental breakdown if this continues so any help is much appreciated.
 
What water do you use for water change? Also,
 
Last edited:
Whoops, sorry about that, I’m new here and didn’t see this thread with the rules. The water I use is Seattle tap water with water conditioner and some powder manufactured I believe by Seachem to boost gh/kh. I will upload photos and the remaining information this evening!
 
1. Size of tank: 22 gallon long
2. Age of the system approximately: 10 months, but switched to this tank maybe 5-6 months ago. The substrate and plants and wood were moved over.
3. Tap water parameters: GH 30, KH 40, nitrites/nitrates 0, pH 6.4. This is based off test strips but I used two different brands and the results roughly match, and are consistent with what the water has read for me in the past.
4. Filtration: EHEIM Classic Canister Filter 2213, rated for 66 gallons.
5. Lighting and duration: Chihiros wrgb II 90, currently turned up to 3 out of 6 degrees intensity? If that makes sense. Up until a week or 2 ago it was actually on the lowest setting without me realizing. It was on that setting for a few months. Now I am ramping it up by a degree per week.
6. Substrate: ADA Amazonia with some UNS controsoil mixed in
7. Co2 dosing or Non-dosing: Dosing 2 bubbles/second, starting 2 hours before lights on and stopping 1 hr before lights off.
8. Fertilizers used + Ratios. Niloc G aquatics macros/micros. Macros/micros on alternating days, dosed 2 pumps each. I am just following the package instructions which are based on EI. However this past week I have not dosed since fertilizer levels had gotten a bit high as I stated in the first post.
9. Water change regime and composition. 50% per week.
10. Plant list. I'm not sure, there are quite a few. I'm just going to list common names where possible since I don't want to google all of them. Alternathera reineckii, purple cabomba, trident and windelov java fern, several types of bucephelandra, several types of moss, several types of marsilea, hydrocotyl japan, tiger lotus, Persicaria sp. 'Sao Paulo', several types of crypts, some kind of rotala, Amazon frogbit, some vals, pogostemon stellatus, brazilian pennywort, some other type of hydrocotyle that is tall, ranunculus inundatus, maybe a couple others I am not remembering.
11. Inhabitants. Guppies, endlers, cherry shrimp, amano shrimp. There are 8 adult fish, some uncounted number of babies, at least 3 Amanos and 2 cherry shrimp.
12. Full tank shot & Surface image.
Screen Shot 2023-01-28 at 7.31.37 PM.png
Screen Shot 2023-01-28 at 7.49.20 PM.png


And here are some photos of some of the damaged plants:

Screen Shot 2023-01-28 at 7.29.04 PM.png

Alternathera looking absolutely terrible

Screen Shot 2023-01-28 at 7.29.17 PM.png

This Hydrocotyle gets chlorotic new leaves

Screen Shot 2023-01-28 at 7.29.24 PM.png


This happened to the lower leaves of my hygrophila pinnatifida just days after I added it. This is the same pattern of damage that slowly killed almost all of my old hygrophila pinnatifida when it had previously been thriving.

Screen Shot 2023-01-28 at 7.31.28 PM.png


And this happened to my water wisteria days after I added it. Holes developing in the older leaves as well and some black gunk accumulating on them.

Thank you!
 
Hmm. I can see a few things. Your first plant pic shows what appear to be algae on the leaves, those bits, which look to be diatoms, should be removed.
The frogbit is yellowing, which suggests it’s lacking nutrients. It’s not light or CO2 limited as it’s on the surface, so the yellowing will relate to lack of nutrients. You’ve also got chlorotic Hydrocotyle leaves And it’s showing on the water wisteria too. All of this points to nutrition deficiencies, regardless of what your nitrate test tells you (nitrate testing is unreliable).
Have a look at this page for some help:
 
Last edited:
Any explanation as to why the plants I just added a few days ago are showing similar symptoms? Is it possible for plants to develop nutrient deficiencies within a few days of being in an environment?
 
Hi all,
Any explanation as to why the plants I just added a few days ago are showing similar symptoms? Is it possible for plants to develop nutrient deficiencies within a few days of being in an environment?
It is possible, but only for the nutrients that aren't mobile within the plant.

With these the plant can't stockpile them when times are good and then shuffle them around in the way that it could with the mobile nutrients.

Cheers Darrel
 
Oh okay, I see. And what would you all suggest to resolve the problem? I’ve been dosing fertilizers designed for EI throughout this process. Should I just increase the dose and if so by how much?
 
Hi all,
And what would you all suggest to resolve the problem?
I'm pretty sure we can resolve your problem, now that we have some photos and your comments;
......... the plants I just added a few days ago are showing similar symptoms?
We have a lot more to go on. I'm pretty sure that, at least some of your issues are iron (Fe) related.
One thing that did change around the time these issues started happening is that I gradually increased the kH/GH of the water from basically nothing to what it is now
Have a look at <"Amazon Frogbit"> and linked threads.
..... Iron isn't mobile within the plant and deficiency symptoms appear first in newer leaves. Have a look at <"(Early) signs....">, it has @Zeus. spectacularly stripy Pogostemon helferi in it.

upload_2020-1-22_21-28-35-png.png


Any magnesium deficiency is easily addressed with <"Epsom Salts"> (MgSO4.7H2O), which are 10% Mg.

Iron is a bit more complicated, because plants don't need very much of it, but it is <"difficult to keep in solution in harder water">. It is only new leaves that will be larger and greener, the iron deficient ones will remain yellow.
screen-shot-2023-01-28-at-7-29-17-pm-png.200387

I’ve been dosing fertilizers designed for EI throughout this process. Should I just increase the dose and if so by how much?
The problem with plant growth is that it is an assembly line, and because of that you need all the nutrients to be plant available before you get any plant growth. This is described by the principle of <"Liebig's limiting nutrient">. So more won't be better until the missing nutrient(s) is / are plant avaialble.

cheers Darrel
 
I would consider whether these results could be due to nutrient lock-out, and in my experience this is most commonly caused by the overabundance of phosphates. I would stop adding phosphate altogether until the plants have recovered fully, and I would probably want to know a bit more about the chemical composition of my tap water.
 
I would consider whether these results could be due to nutrient lock-out, and in my experience this is most commonly caused by the overabundance of phosphates. I would stop adding phosphate altogether until the plants have recovered fully, and I would probably want to know a bit more about the chemical composition of my tap water.
I was wondering about phosphates as well.

And specific Ca/Mg.

Lots of things were natural responses to what you saw @Zoefish. Don’t think you’ve done anything unnatural.

Some food for thought: using ADA soil, so why not do a complete 180 and use ADA system ideaology. You have Seattle tap, so it’s probably less than 20-30 Ca and maybe less than 5 Mg. Low KH too.

Probably just need minimal N/P and some K and Mg … Nilocg will be better composed than Thrive but may need a bit more K.

If you go the abundance route, you’re going to be chasing water column targets until you get it - and you won’t be able to do that with an all in one and no booster … gonna need salt boosters to fix your minerals.

But you have soft water in your tap so easier to work with that vs add more in.
 
Last edited:
I would consider whether these results could be due to nutrient lock-out, and in my experience this is most commonly caused by the overabundance of phosphates
Well in terrestrial plants and aquatic plants this is definitely something that happens, in fact Fe chlorosis symptoms can be masked if we also limit (starve) P.
I often wonder if folks dosing high levels of Po4 run into Fe deficiency issues because of this?


The Ops dosing about 1.3 ppm Po4 per dose.
PhotoRoom-20220202_164520_1200x.png

Is 4ppm weekly enough to block fe uptake in soft water.. I'd say not.

For me its a topic worthy of discussion, but appreciate it won't help the Op.
 
Last edited:
I would probably want to know a bit more about the chemical composition of my tap water.
That one.

Hi @Zoefish, Can you find a local water report? phosphates and nitrate levels as usually very low here in the US (as guided by the EPA) but hardness varies a lot... I know some neighborhoods up there got super soft water (1-2 dGH) such as Bellevue.

Cheers,
Michael
 
Back
Top