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NaCl as source of micronutrient Chlorine?

Happi

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Joined
15 Jan 2012
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455
Location
UTAH, USA
@Djoko Sauza

plant truly use very little Na and Cl, 0.1-0.2 ppm Na and 0.5-1 ppm Cl is plenty during water changes. for RO water I recommend using CaCl to add little Ca and Cl along with your Caso4 and MgSo4.

we use to use Calcium Chloride, Calcium Gluconate, Magnesium Chloride, Magnesium Gluconate. this was similar attempt to clone the "Aqua Vitro Mineralize" back then. but we took out the Ca and Mg Gluconate because we were only able to dissolve very little, wasn't worth it. but you can use the Ca and Mg chloride in a stock solution for your water changes due to its high solubility.

your best bet is to use these in conjunction and directly added to the water: Caso4, MgSo4, Calcium Chloride, Calcium Gluconate, Magnesium Chloride, Magnesium Gluconate in combination would be best idea. and you can use NaHCO₃ and KHCO3 to add Na, K to your water.


need help breaking this down
aquavitro - mineralize
 

MichaelJ

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Joined
9 Feb 2021
Messages
1,747
Location
Minnesota, USA
@Djoko Sauza

plant truly use very little Na and Cl, 0.1-0.2 ppm Na and 0.5-1 ppm Cl is plenty during water changes. for RO water I recommend using CaCl to add little Ca and Cl along with your Caso4 and MgSo4.

we use to use Calcium Chloride, Calcium Gluconate, Magnesium Chloride, Magnesium Gluconate. this was similar attempt to clone the "Aqua Vitro Mineralize" back then. but we took out the Ca and Mg Gluconate because we were only able to dissolve very little, wasn't worth it. but you can use the Ca and Mg chloride in a stock solution for your water changes due to its high solubility.

your best bet is to use these in conjunction and directly added to the water: Caso4, MgSo4, Calcium Chloride, Calcium Gluconate, Magnesium Chloride, Magnesium Gluconate in combination would be best idea. and you can use NaHCO₃ and KHCO3 to add Na, K to your water.


need help breaking this down
aquavitro - mineralize
Hi @Happi I am using MgSO4, CaSO4, Mg(NO3)2, KH2PO4 and just started K2CO3 to get that tiny bit of CO3 (~1.4 KH) and what I need for K.... I am thinking about targeting about 1 ppm/wk of Na and 1.5 ppm/wk of Cl. or half of that... (0.5 ppm Na / 0.75 ppm Cl) with NaCl... I believe that should be good. Thoughts?

Cheers,
Michael
 

Happi

Member
Joined
15 Jan 2012
Messages
455
Location
UTAH, USA
Hi @Happi I am using MgSO4, CaSO4, Mg(NO3)2, KH2PO4 and just started K2CO3 to get that tiny bit of CO3 (~1.4 KH) and what I need for K.... I am thinking about targeting about 1 ppm/wk of Na and 1.5 ppm/wk of Cl. or half of that... (0.5 ppm Na / 0.75 ppm Cl) with NaCl... I believe that should be good. Thoughts?

Cheers,
Michael
I don't see any issue with this. but, I strongly recommend using KHCO3 over K2CO3 especially if you like to dose higher amount of K. I once tested whatever this thread is talking about: Problems with possible KHCO3 toxicity
I too encountered the same issue as Kekon, am not a believer of PH swings killing fishes but most likely the issue He/You could encounter could be NH3/NH4 switching and causing some issue when K2CO3 is used. I used KHCO3 at 3 ppm daily like ADA does in the past and nothing bad happened. K2CO3 have a PH of 11.5 vs KHCO3 PH of 8.2


aquavitro - carbonate
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MichaelJ

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Joined
9 Feb 2021
Messages
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Location
Minnesota, USA
I don't see any issue with this. but, I strongly recommend using KHCO3 over K2CO3 especially if you like to dose higher amount of K. I once tested whatever this thread is talking about: Problems with possible KHCO3 toxicity
I too encountered the same issue as Kekon, am not a believer of PH swings killing fishes but most likely the issue He/You could encounter could be NH3/NH4 switching and causing some issue when K2CO3 is used. I used KHCO3 at 3 ppm daily like ADA does in the past and nothing bad happened. K2CO3 have a PH of 11.5 vs KHCO3 PH of 8.2
Hi @Happi, Thanks for your reply.
Coincidently I did some investigation into the K2CO3 usage. It is indeed a very potent base in pure RO water. What I realized though is for my low target of ~1.5 KH and ~20 ppm of K that I target my WC water at, I should be good especially as my WC water is mixed with all my other minerals and salts (Ca and Mg in particular) the pH should be much more stable. Your right about KHCO3 - lower pH and I would get the same amount of K from an equal KH with KHCO3 with the benefit of a lower initial pH. The downside is that I get an initial higher TDS with KHCO3 (36 ppm with K2CO3 vs. 54 ppm with KHCO3) which is a bit of a bummer as I am chasing low(er) TDS as mentioned.

Cheers,
Michael
 

X3NiTH

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13 Apr 2014
Messages
1,538
If you really want to chase low TDS then supplement remineralisation with CaCO3 and MgCO3 for the Carbonates, they will fully dissolve to bring water to 8GH and 8KH if needed (these levels I targeted were to simulate Karst water), it’ll take at least a week if dry dosed to stop looking like it snowed in the tank though. You can speed things up significantly if you semi convert these into bicarbonates by dosing into very cold refrigerated CO2 saturated water (I used a Sodastream machine to get CO2 saturated water), 900ml of CO2 soda strength saturated water into 26L of RO ends up at about 30ppm CO2 in the Jerry can so you can waterchange mid injection cycle. When it comes to purity of water Chlorides and Sulphates can be seen as hallmarks for pollution and reducing their amount overall isn’t a bad thing when chasing low TDS.

:)
 

Happi

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Joined
15 Jan 2012
Messages
455
Location
UTAH, USA
this is what Marcel Shared with me at some point similar to what X3NiTH is talking about

*CaCO3: In this recipe you have to use CaCO3 for adding Ca++ and CO3--. The problem is that CaCO3 is very hard to dissolve. There is one relatively easy way how to dissolve it, but you need the SodaStream for it. The best way is to add no more than 0.5 to 0.6 grams into 900 ml of distilled water, and pump CO2 into it using the SodaStream. For this amount of CaCO3 to fully dissolve you have to leave it in the bottle for 2 to 3 days (occasionally shaking it)! After all the powder dissolves, you need to get rid of the excess CO2 in the bottle. The best way is to put an air stone inside it, and buttle an air thought it for about 5 to 10 minutes (but you need to watch the pH of the water, it is best to keep it about a neutral pH = 7). Never ever add the soda water directly into your tank, because the concentration of CO2 inside it may exceed 4,000 ppm!!! That's the reason why you need to aerate it first using an air stone (to get rid of the excess CO2). If you don't have SodaStream at hand, you can add the CaCO3 directly into your tank, but be prepared that it may take some time for it to dissolve (also you need to supply CO2 into your tank for it to dissolve, so in tanks without CO2 the CaCO3 won't probably dissolve).
 

MichaelJ

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9 Feb 2021
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Location
Minnesota, USA
If you really want to chase low TDS then supplement remineralisation with CaCO3 and MgCO3 for the Carbonates,
Hi @X3NiTH So currently I am targeting 30ppm of Ca with CaSO4 that gives me 24 ppm of S. If I would target the same amount of Ca with CaCO3 I would end up with 45 ppm of CO3. A net difference of 21 ppm in favor of CaSO4, so I am not sure how that would work in my favor overall (I am not a chemist btw.)?

they will fully dissolve to bring water to 8GH and 8KH if needed (these levels I targeted were to simulate Karst water), it’ll take at least a week if dry dosed to stop looking like it snowed in the tank though.
Yes, thats another issue. Remember I was experimenting with Ca Gluconate and Mg Gluconate and it made my water look like someone had poured a gallon of whole milk into the tank overnight :lol:

EDIT: However, I never really took it to the test to see if I could compromise between the Ca Gluconate and CaSO4 - i.e. doing half-and-half. Get 15 ppm from each compound without the negative side effect. That might be worth trying.

You can speed things up significantly if you semi convert these into bicarbonates by dosing into very cold refrigerated CO2 saturated water (I used a Sodastream machine to get CO2 saturated water), 900ml of CO2 soda strength saturated water into 26L of RO ends up at about 30ppm CO2 in the Jerry can so you can waterchange mid injection cycle.
I don't inject CO2 but we do have a Sodastream machine in our household, but this might be a bit too elaborate for my maintenance routine :)

When it comes to purity of water Chlorides and Sulphates can be seen as hallmarks for pollution and reducing their amount overall isn’t a bad thing when chasing low TDS.
Yes! What bugs me is all the SO4 I am adding... If I could get rid of (minimize) that from my Ca and Mg dosing I would be a pretty happy camper - as that would get me down to the 130 ppm TDS range while maintaining my relatively high N/NO3,P/PO4,K,Ca,Mg levels :) (I already tweaked those down quite a bit btw.).

Cheers,
Michael
 
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Happi

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Joined
15 Jan 2012
Messages
455
Location
UTAH, USA
I added like 1 spoon of Caco3 into my RO water in a aquarium that didn't have any substrate and it never truly dissolved and I waited for few weeks, the ph was around 6. calcium acetate is another option, you can probably react CaCO3, MgCO3 with vinegar to achieve this.
 
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