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Natural Aquarium attempt - 16/06/2015 (pics)
- Thread starter Jaap
- Start date
Brian Murphy
Member
Did the monte carlo come through in the end? Was it the light ?
Day 193!
Today I have decided to get rid of the algae by overdosing Seachem Excel for 10-14 days and then gradually decreasing the dose until I stop. Then I will observe if I have algae issues again so as to address them from the root cause because at the moment I am thinking that this algae was from my previous mistakes and continues to grow!
Today I have decided to get rid of the algae by overdosing Seachem Excel for 10-14 days and then gradually decreasing the dose until I stop. Then I will observe if I have algae issues again so as to address them from the root cause because at the moment I am thinking that this algae was from my previous mistakes and continues to grow!
REDSTEVEO
Member
Hi Jaap,
I have had a good look through this journal. Isn't it frustrating when you think you are doing everything by the book and you still get problems with algae
Even with the advice from everyone from UKAPS and reading all the threads on algae no matter how experienced we think we are, we still get problems with the dreaded algae!
So what is causing your problems? I see you have had some input from Clive. Clive has helped me out loads of times and I have always followed his advice and he has been right almost 100% of the time. He is absolutely right when he says nutrients don't cause algae.
Algae is caused by excessive light over too long a period. Full stop.
So what would I do now in your situation? For what it is worth here is my humble opinion.
The way I see it, for this tank you have two options.
1. Stick with it, work out how to deal with it and learn from the process so that you develop your knowledge to prevent it happening again next time you set up a new tank, or,
2. Strip the whole thing down and start again.
From the last photograph above it looks like you are making some progress, definitely moving in the right direction. From the earlier photographs it looked to me like you were adding too much Macro and Micro nutrients for the amount of plant mass you had in the tank and definitely too much light too early in the tanks development.
The stem plants looked long and leggy, I would have been pruning these back and re-planting the cuttings to thicken up the plant mass. The stuargyrene repens plants looked stressed and weak and were not strong enough to absorb the nutirents you were adding or make effective use of the light you were using.
So if you have got weak and damaged plants with leaves melting etc, you are chucking in loads of nutrients and using high intensity lighting over too long a photo period, something else has to take advantage of these conditions, have you guessed what it is yet? Yep, algae
So with weak and stressed plants you then started double and treble dosing with Seachem Flourish Excel trying to kill the algae but finished up stressing out the plants even more. Also one of the things that caused your problems was that the plants were trying to grow above the substrate before they had chance to put down a really strong root base. If you are using a substrate which is neutral and contains no nutrients or fertiliser whatsoever, the foliage above the substrate might be getting nutrients from the water column but without a healthy root system to support them the plants are going to struggle.
If I had been in the same situation as you were in here is what I would have done. It is not too late to do this now either.
1. Reset the water column back to zero. By this I mean do 3 x 50% to 80% water changes over the period of a week. Do this until you are absolutely positive that you have removed all traces of Macro and Micro nutrients. (I have no idea what your Nitrate/NPK levels are but I am guessing they were off the scale because your plants were not healthy enough to make use of them)
While you are doing the water changes physically remove by hand as much algae as possible. Use a pipe cleaning brush and twirl it through the plants to trap and remove as much algae as possible.
2. Temporarily suspend the use of EI or adding any fertilisers into the water column. If your substrate is neutral buy some of the best quality plant root fertilser tabs you can find, (not the big round clay balls from JBL) and push them into the substrate all around the plant base. Trim and prune the plants, especially the leggy stem plants and re-plant them.
3. Cut out all of your lights for at least one week. A total blackout covering the tank might be too much but at least leave all the lights off and give the roots some time to find the nutrients in the root tabs and establish themselves.
4. Stop using Floursih Excel or dumping any other chemicals (peroxide or anything else) into the water.
5. Looking at the pictures of your spray bars the flow around your tank looks more than enough to me, maybe even a bit too much. You just need to make sure the CO2 is being picked up and moved with the water. HOWEVER and this is just my opinion, there is no point in cranking up the CO2 to the point where your drop checkers turn to a lemon yellow colour, or to the point where the CO2 is so high it is killing your amano shrimp and your fish, ESPECIALLY if the plant mass is so low in the first place, it is just a waste of your CO2. As the plants increase and establish themselves you can increase the levels of CO2 and gradually re-introduce the lighting, and if you want or feel it is the right time start re-introducing the EI Ferts.
I have had good and bad experiences with EI. When you get the balance right between water quality, lighting, plant mass, fish stock and the right EI dosing regime the results can be spectacular, get it wrong like I did (this was totally down to me) it caused me quite afew problems. If I was giving anyone advice who was just starting out using EI, my advice would be to calculate what you think you need for the size of your tank and the amount of plants you have, and then halve the dose for the first few weeks to see how it goes. The plants will tell you if something is not right, and you can always increase slowly over a period of time to see how the plants adjust.
6. Remember two things, 1)The only things that happen quickly in aquariums are bad things, and 2) The only things that happen quickly in aquariums are bad things.
Best of luck with it.
Cheers,
Steve.
I have had a good look through this journal. Isn't it frustrating when you think you are doing everything by the book and you still get problems with algae
Even with the advice from everyone from UKAPS and reading all the threads on algae no matter how experienced we think we are, we still get problems with the dreaded algae!
So what is causing your problems? I see you have had some input from Clive. Clive has helped me out loads of times and I have always followed his advice and he has been right almost 100% of the time. He is absolutely right when he says nutrients don't cause algae.
Algae is caused by excessive light over too long a period. Full stop.
So what would I do now in your situation? For what it is worth here is my humble opinion.
The way I see it, for this tank you have two options.
1. Stick with it, work out how to deal with it and learn from the process so that you develop your knowledge to prevent it happening again next time you set up a new tank, or,
2. Strip the whole thing down and start again.
From the last photograph above it looks like you are making some progress, definitely moving in the right direction. From the earlier photographs it looked to me like you were adding too much Macro and Micro nutrients for the amount of plant mass you had in the tank and definitely too much light too early in the tanks development.
The stem plants looked long and leggy, I would have been pruning these back and re-planting the cuttings to thicken up the plant mass. The stuargyrene repens plants looked stressed and weak and were not strong enough to absorb the nutirents you were adding or make effective use of the light you were using.
So if you have got weak and damaged plants with leaves melting etc, you are chucking in loads of nutrients and using high intensity lighting over too long a photo period, something else has to take advantage of these conditions, have you guessed what it is yet? Yep, algae
So with weak and stressed plants you then started double and treble dosing with Seachem Flourish Excel trying to kill the algae but finished up stressing out the plants even more. Also one of the things that caused your problems was that the plants were trying to grow above the substrate before they had chance to put down a really strong root base. If you are using a substrate which is neutral and contains no nutrients or fertiliser whatsoever, the foliage above the substrate might be getting nutrients from the water column but without a healthy root system to support them the plants are going to struggle.
If I had been in the same situation as you were in here is what I would have done. It is not too late to do this now either.
1. Reset the water column back to zero. By this I mean do 3 x 50% to 80% water changes over the period of a week. Do this until you are absolutely positive that you have removed all traces of Macro and Micro nutrients. (I have no idea what your Nitrate/NPK levels are but I am guessing they were off the scale because your plants were not healthy enough to make use of them)
While you are doing the water changes physically remove by hand as much algae as possible. Use a pipe cleaning brush and twirl it through the plants to trap and remove as much algae as possible.
2. Temporarily suspend the use of EI or adding any fertilisers into the water column. If your substrate is neutral buy some of the best quality plant root fertilser tabs you can find, (not the big round clay balls from JBL) and push them into the substrate all around the plant base. Trim and prune the plants, especially the leggy stem plants and re-plant them.
3. Cut out all of your lights for at least one week. A total blackout covering the tank might be too much but at least leave all the lights off and give the roots some time to find the nutrients in the root tabs and establish themselves.
4. Stop using Floursih Excel or dumping any other chemicals (peroxide or anything else) into the water.
5. Looking at the pictures of your spray bars the flow around your tank looks more than enough to me, maybe even a bit too much. You just need to make sure the CO2 is being picked up and moved with the water. HOWEVER and this is just my opinion, there is no point in cranking up the CO2 to the point where your drop checkers turn to a lemon yellow colour, or to the point where the CO2 is so high it is killing your amano shrimp and your fish, ESPECIALLY if the plant mass is so low in the first place, it is just a waste of your CO2. As the plants increase and establish themselves you can increase the levels of CO2 and gradually re-introduce the lighting, and if you want or feel it is the right time start re-introducing the EI Ferts.
I have had good and bad experiences with EI. When you get the balance right between water quality, lighting, plant mass, fish stock and the right EI dosing regime the results can be spectacular, get it wrong like I did (this was totally down to me) it caused me quite afew problems. If I was giving anyone advice who was just starting out using EI, my advice would be to calculate what you think you need for the size of your tank and the amount of plants you have, and then halve the dose for the first few weeks to see how it goes. The plants will tell you if something is not right, and you can always increase slowly over a period of time to see how the plants adjust.
6. Remember two things, 1)The only things that happen quickly in aquariums are bad things, and 2) The only things that happen quickly in aquariums are bad things.
Best of luck with it.
Cheers,
Steve.
Hi Steve and thank you for taking the time to write such a helpful post.
I think I figured out what went wrong the first place. This was definitely the light. I had my TMC GroBeam 600 at 50% from the very first day and the low light did not help the plants grow and become strong at all. Another member in this forum did not get growth at all from the light and it was a dry start method with intensity of the grobeam 600 at 100%. I now have the TMC 1500 tile which is as twice as powerful as the Grobeam 600 and it is set at 65% intensity. Again the growth that I get from my plants is very little. It takes a month for a stem plant to grow 10cm. For once, it is the light.
Now because the light was the problem and I did not think a very low light intensity would cause problems, I was looking for answers in CO2 and circulation. Playing with the CO2 caused BBA and it is there since then but I observe it is multiplying as more light is added. However, at 65% I am still lacking light since the montecarlo has not fully grown to occupy the substrate which is a patch of 10cmx10cm, and we are on to our 200th day!
I have begun overdosing Seachem Excel only the past 2 days with the thought that if I kill all algae and leave everything as it is, then when I stop dosing Excel the algae will not appear again and the plants will still grow very very very slowly. If this is the case then I will slowly increase my light intensity. If when I stop dosing Excel, the algae reappears, then I will try the CO2 misting method. If that doesn't help the plants grow better and outgrow the algae, then as a last resort, I will overdose Seachem Excel once more to kill all algae and then increase the light levels to 85%-90% to see if the plants grow healthy to out-compete the algae.
If all of the above do not work then I am tearing this tank appart and starting a new one with a substrate packed of nutrients.
I am pretty sure though that good CO2 + good Circulation + good Nutrients + good Lighting = good healthy Growth! So, by the process of elimination, if the first 3 elements of our equation are there then it only means the lighting is the one that is causing troubles...
These are my thoughts and my humble opinion from all the days of patience, disappointments, excitements, frustration, research that I have had the past 195 days of this journal...
Thanks
I think I figured out what went wrong the first place. This was definitely the light. I had my TMC GroBeam 600 at 50% from the very first day and the low light did not help the plants grow and become strong at all. Another member in this forum did not get growth at all from the light and it was a dry start method with intensity of the grobeam 600 at 100%. I now have the TMC 1500 tile which is as twice as powerful as the Grobeam 600 and it is set at 65% intensity. Again the growth that I get from my plants is very little. It takes a month for a stem plant to grow 10cm. For once, it is the light.
Now because the light was the problem and I did not think a very low light intensity would cause problems, I was looking for answers in CO2 and circulation. Playing with the CO2 caused BBA and it is there since then but I observe it is multiplying as more light is added. However, at 65% I am still lacking light since the montecarlo has not fully grown to occupy the substrate which is a patch of 10cmx10cm, and we are on to our 200th day!
I have begun overdosing Seachem Excel only the past 2 days with the thought that if I kill all algae and leave everything as it is, then when I stop dosing Excel the algae will not appear again and the plants will still grow very very very slowly. If this is the case then I will slowly increase my light intensity. If when I stop dosing Excel, the algae reappears, then I will try the CO2 misting method. If that doesn't help the plants grow better and outgrow the algae, then as a last resort, I will overdose Seachem Excel once more to kill all algae and then increase the light levels to 85%-90% to see if the plants grow healthy to out-compete the algae.
If all of the above do not work then I am tearing this tank appart and starting a new one with a substrate packed of nutrients.
I am pretty sure though that good CO2 + good Circulation + good Nutrients + good Lighting = good healthy Growth! So, by the process of elimination, if the first 3 elements of our equation are there then it only means the lighting is the one that is causing troubles...
These are my thoughts and my humble opinion from all the days of patience, disappointments, excitements, frustration, research that I have had the past 195 days of this journal...
Thanks
REDSTEVEO
Member
Hi Jaap,
If the plants are really healthy to start with they will grow, I have witnessed plants growing even during a complete blackout for a week, the only thing that you missed out in your equation is 'a healthy root system' to sustain the plant above the substrate. Eleocharis and Monte Carlo need the roots to be able to sprout new shoots.
Cheers,
Steve
If the plants are really healthy to start with they will grow, I have witnessed plants growing even during a complete blackout for a week, the only thing that you missed out in your equation is 'a healthy root system' to sustain the plant above the substrate. Eleocharis and Monte Carlo need the roots to be able to sprout new shoots.
Cheers,
Steve
Day 258!
After increasing water changes to once every two days, the tank was invaded with diatoms. I then decided to just let it be and that seemed to keep them at bay. I still have some BBA but its not that bad. Today I have increased light intensity from 65% to 70%. I have also trimmed back the Tripartita almost completely because old yellow leaves were trapped under the newer layers of leaves.
Lets see what happens now!
After increasing water changes to once every two days, the tank was invaded with diatoms. I then decided to just let it be and that seemed to keep them at bay. I still have some BBA but its not that bad. Today I have increased light intensity from 65% to 70%. I have also trimmed back the Tripartita almost completely because old yellow leaves were trapped under the newer layers of leaves.
Lets see what happens now!
Last edited:
Andy Thurston
Member
- Joined
- 16 Apr 2013
- Messages
- 2,804
is that monte carlo or hc at the front, either way it needs a big trim and trimming often
monte carlo and i just trimmed it
UPDATE:
A week ago I came to the conclusion along with the advice of other forum members, that the dirt produced in the tank continuously is what caused major algae problems to me. So i have decided to rip everything out except a few Stayrogyne Repens and the Monte Carlo. I have siphoned unbelievable amounts of mulm and I am sure there is more lurking between the leaves of the remaining plants. A week from the major uprooting and the situtation isn't getting any better so I have started making changes for educational purposes.
1st change was to increase the light intensity by 10% from 70% to 80%. I have seen other members of the forum with same tank and light to have the light at the same distance and at 100% intensity. This change I might say has increased algae a bit.
2nd change was yesterday and I have decreased the flow of my filter. A 1000 l/h filter in a 40L tank is too much. As ardjuna mentioned, the plant should be able to control its leaves to the direction of the light. My dwarf hairgrass plants were bent all the time and the Monte Carlo though was too stiff to bent. Awaiting to see the effects.
3rd change will be to decrease the CO2 levels. I have a drop checker solution that measures 20ppm of CO2 and is currently yellow so I assume I might have 30-40 ppm.
You might ask why I am doing all this changes and I am going against all the things people say. Yes, I am doing this for 3 reasons. 1st is that I have done all the things people say and I have failed. 2nd I want to learn, see the effects of each change and 3rd I have seen the setup of a friend that has a 60L tank and even the water we use is the same, he has successfully grown very healthy plants with co2 levels that turn the 20ppm drop checker solution to green and flow half the flow of my 1000 l/h filter in a 60L tank. The only difference is the 48w t5ho fluorescent lamps above the tank, which look brighter than my 1500 ND TMC tile.
So yes, I have dared to increase light, decrease flow and decrease CO2, going against all the forum advice but at least I can learn from my actions....lets see!
My friends tank with low flow and low co2
A week ago I came to the conclusion along with the advice of other forum members, that the dirt produced in the tank continuously is what caused major algae problems to me. So i have decided to rip everything out except a few Stayrogyne Repens and the Monte Carlo. I have siphoned unbelievable amounts of mulm and I am sure there is more lurking between the leaves of the remaining plants. A week from the major uprooting and the situtation isn't getting any better so I have started making changes for educational purposes.
1st change was to increase the light intensity by 10% from 70% to 80%. I have seen other members of the forum with same tank and light to have the light at the same distance and at 100% intensity. This change I might say has increased algae a bit.
2nd change was yesterday and I have decreased the flow of my filter. A 1000 l/h filter in a 40L tank is too much. As ardjuna mentioned, the plant should be able to control its leaves to the direction of the light. My dwarf hairgrass plants were bent all the time and the Monte Carlo though was too stiff to bent. Awaiting to see the effects.
3rd change will be to decrease the CO2 levels. I have a drop checker solution that measures 20ppm of CO2 and is currently yellow so I assume I might have 30-40 ppm.
You might ask why I am doing all this changes and I am going against all the things people say. Yes, I am doing this for 3 reasons. 1st is that I have done all the things people say and I have failed. 2nd I want to learn, see the effects of each change and 3rd I have seen the setup of a friend that has a 60L tank and even the water we use is the same, he has successfully grown very healthy plants with co2 levels that turn the 20ppm drop checker solution to green and flow half the flow of my 1000 l/h filter in a 60L tank. The only difference is the 48w t5ho fluorescent lamps above the tank, which look brighter than my 1500 ND TMC tile.
So yes, I have dared to increase light, decrease flow and decrease CO2, going against all the forum advice but at least I can learn from my actions....lets see!
My friends tank with low flow and low co2
Last edited:
Alexander Belchenko
Member
Glad you still keep trying to find the balance. I'm sorry to see you did not succeed so far.
I just want to note you need to be patient with each change: allow your plants to adapt to changes during 1-2 weeks before doing any conclusion is the change helped or not.
I also think T5 might be better for the plants in your conditions. That's just my non-scientific personal opinion.
BTW, your friend have very nice tank. I'm sure you can find the right path very soon too. Beware of hot summer though! Try to keep temp of your water under control.
And keep posting your progress. Don't give up!
I just want to note you need to be patient with each change: allow your plants to adapt to changes during 1-2 weeks before doing any conclusion is the change helped or not.
I also think T5 might be better for the plants in your conditions. That's just my non-scientific personal opinion.
BTW, your friend have very nice tank. I'm sure you can find the right path very soon too. Beware of hot summer though! Try to keep temp of your water under control.
And keep posting your progress. Don't give up!
Edvet
Member
Good to see you keep on it as a learning proces! Volhouden!
Update: For a long time I had diatoms. Even after a year of running the tank. So I asked Tom Barr what might be the problem. I told him I don't use dechlorinator and he told me that I should start using. Furthermore, I had filamentous algae and Tom pointed out that it is due to lack of biomass. On top of that my glass is filled with green dust algae. Also some of the leaves of Stayrogyne Repens have BBA. All the algae species in one place
Actions: 50% water changes every 2 days using dechlorinator and lowering the light intensity from 80% to 70%. Filter cleaning every 2 weeks.
Lets see what happens...I will keep you posted!
Actions: 50% water changes every 2 days using dechlorinator and lowering the light intensity from 80% to 70%. Filter cleaning every 2 weeks.
Lets see what happens...I will keep you posted!
Tom is the man...it's a thin line btw success and failure, I'm sure you'll get there, it's just a matter of perseverance...
Filamentous algae is nearly gone. The Excel overdose is working but also some Monte Carlo melting. I have lowered the dosage of Excel and also lowered the light intensity from 70% to 60%.
I have purchase this drop checker indicator that is for 30 ppm:
https://www.aquasabi.com/co2/co2-drop-checker/aqua-rebell-co2-check-250-ml
It is yellow which means my CO2 hopefully is above 30 ppm. With so little biomass I believe it is an overkill and so I will decrease the CO2 soon.
Thanks
I have purchase this drop checker indicator that is for 30 ppm:
https://www.aquasabi.com/co2/co2-drop-checker/aqua-rebell-co2-check-250-ml
It is yellow which means my CO2 hopefully is above 30 ppm. With so little biomass I believe it is an overkill and so I will decrease the CO2 soon.
Thanks
flygja
Member
When I read what you were about to do, I thought you were seriously going about in the wrong direction. But I applaud you for trying. Especially when you have a friend's similar setup that you can refer to. I have had some inexplicable issues with my tank too, even with all the common advice (lower light of ~50 PAR at substrate, CO2 drop checker is yellow, EI or PPS Pro ferts, more than 10x turnover, spraybar the entire back of the tank) but still have very slow growth and some algae. I'm definitely waiting for your results of this experiment.