NatureScape - The End

[Tim Harrison]

I guess I'm kind of lucky. I had a real problem finding a female in the first place, but then to buy one accidentally...
Do you reckon it's still a good idea to buy a male ? Could two females become a problem is one pairs up with a male ?

 

[akwarium]

The new one is a female, the original one might be a male. There is a red coloration on the belly but it's not the deeper pinkish blush you would expect.
The fish will know and tell you with their behavior. If their is courtship behavior it is most likely a pair.

 

[Conort2]

I would say they are both females. The pink belly and body shape gives it away.

Cheers

Conor

 

[alto]

There are many color lines in ram breeding, going back in time two dominant lines were “German blue” and “Holland red” - while the names indicated origins on the blood lines, they are now available through Asian or Czech or Florida etc breeding farms

If those 2 rams pictured have (any) Holland red bloodline, that would account for the high degree of red color in the belly region - ie NOT definitive of female

Recently I observed a “gold ram” group where almost all individuals had pretty pink belly regions, but only a couple I’d consider high probability female

Best chance is watching the group in the shop tank and choosing the “most likely” male and the “most likely” female, then choose at least another “couple”, take them home and wait for pairing

Occasionally you’ll see “pairs” already formed in the shop tank - buy this “pair” plus at least one other likely female as
M ramirezi tend to form temporary breeding pairs rather than strongly bonded brood pairs

https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/mikrogeophagus-ramirezi/

It’s always worth looking at Seriously Fish Profiles - the photos in this one are excellent as they show how distorted many of the domestics forms are from the original wild fish

 

[Tim Harrison]

Thanks for taking the time to reply guys, much appreciated
And thanks @alto I had feeling there was perhaps more to this than meets the eye. I'll be watching to see how they get along.

 

[alto]

I don’t recall “Holland rams” being quite so red in former years, but recent batches from one supplier are very red bodied, at a first glance I thought a good percentage were females ... but changed my mind later to “another batch of mostly boys”

An alternate supplier, sends much less red bellied “Holland rams” (I prefer these as I’m a blue ram fan) though they still display much stronger red hues through the body and fins

Of course these fish are likely predominantly male from pH and temp effects
(but also possibly some hormones)

 

[Jayefc1]

So they have electric blue rams in the pets at home near me are they GM rams or real ones

 

[alto]

I think by GM you mean Genetically Modified

Electric blue, neon blue, neon green, platinum (with gold, blue or green head), gold etc are all (natural) color mutations of Mikrogeophagus ramirezi that have been line bred

Some are “healthier” than others but I believe this is more due to the particular breeder rather than the particular color mutation

Note (from Sf profile) wild rams are quite small dwarf cichlids 3.5 - 4.0 cm SL
In shops you will often see rams in the 5.0 - 6.0 cm range, that are also much heavier bodied - I suspect these are selectively outcrossed to larger “cousins” (hybrids), also selected for larger fish within a bloodline ... of course the fastest way to accomplish this is with growth hormones

Choose fish that appear bright and active, watch their respiration rate, look for overal healthy appearance, eg, no missing scales, no white edges/marks to fins (especially the pectoral fins), some splits are fine but should not be extensive (physical damage to fins without underlying disease, heals very rapidly)


Apologies Tim for going down this fish health diversion

 

[Tim Harrison]

Apologies Tim for going down this fish health diversion

I don't mind at all, this is all very interesting and I've learnt a thing or two...keep it coming alto

Note (from Sf profile) wild rams are quite small dwarf cichlids 3.5 - 4.0 cm SL

I thought so. I had a wild pair way back in the day and they seemed tiny by comparison, especially the male.
The male I had to off load recently was very large by comparison. So not just rose tinted glasses of nostalgia then

Electric blue, neon blue, neon green, platinum (with gold, blue or green head), gold etc are all (natural) color mutations of Mikrogeophagus ramirezi that have been line bred

So what actual variant is mine most likely to be do you think alto? I'm hesitant to call them German Blue Rams since there doesn't seem to be much that's blue about them even when they decide to sparkle.

 

[Tim Harrison]

Thought I'd post an aquascaping photomontage from Instagram mostly of this scape but there's three of my last scape, Return of the Shallow, in there to...

 

[Jayefc1]

Ahh mate loved return of the shallow thing is the new scape is just as nice though and the pics are so clear

 

[Tim Harrison]

Thanks Jay

 

[Tim Harrison]

Time for a bit of an update, and a few quick snaps. I've let the Rams go, I reckon they were as confused as I was as to their gender. One minute they were cleaning a rock and chasing all and sundry away, the next, one was aggressively bullying the other...

I've also started to find tiny snails in my tank, which for me is a major bummer, considering I go to huge lengths to exclude the slimy little bar stewards. The only thing I can think of is that they somehow piggybacked on an emersed crypt I introduced a few weeks back

I've never been able to keep the CO2 stable in this tank for some reason. I've been trouble shooting my reg etc with the help of Karol from CO2 Art, but still haven't managed to get to the bottom of it

Anyway, despite that the scape is finally at a point where it'll soon be ready for some final shots, which I hope will be good enough to enter in to a few competitions...maybe

Tim Harrison, on Flickr

Tim Harrison, on Flickr

Tim Harrison, on Flickr

 

[Jayefc1]

Still looks amazing even with any co2 issues your having the colours are popping really nice

 

[alto]

I've let the Rams go, I reckon they were as confused as I was as to their gender. One minute they were cleaning a rock and chasing all and sundry away, the next, one was aggressively bullying the other.

This is pretty typical “pair” behaviour, given more colleagues they likely would’ve tried anew with different partners ... or perhaps just gadded about - kept in groups, they tend to display and politely spar, getting distracted by the next ram so it’s less common to see any determined bullying, and when you think they really should just swim to the far corners of the tank, they form this apparently happy shoal ... until something sets them off again
There often seems to be one “bottom” fish but when I separate this fish to its own tank (lately I always seem to have electric blue or platinum color forms - chosen as they seem to come in with the most similar to wild type size and conformation), it pines away until I return it to the fold
The “meanest” group of rams I kept was a stunning gold variant, deep orangy gold with brilliant blue markings - despite having a group of 8 in a 120cm x 45cm x 55cm tank there could be Only One
and no way was I able to net any of them - unless I was willing to strip down the tank
I didn’t keep rams for a long time after that, in retrospect perhaps I should’ve stripped down the tank to sort them but I had a group of altums and they would not have appreciated that effort

Depending how long you’ve had a ram in the tank, the snails may've been about for awhile, I’ve noticed this sudden tiny snail invasion several times when I’ve moved Rams or Choco’s out of a tank

And I’ve just seen those Blue Demons take down a shrimp only to lose the main part of it to a Choco dive
(S selatanensis)

 

[Tim Harrison]

Thanks @Jayefc1 and for the info @alto.

I didn’t keep rams for a long time after that

I know how you feel. I had a wild pair some time ago and they got on like a house on fire; never really left each others side. I'm guessing that captive bred rams have had more than a bit of natural behaviour bred out of them as a consequence of enhancing colouration. Either way, I don't think I'll be shopping for rams any time soon, and if I ever do again I'll be seeking out a pair from a reputable breeder.

I’ve noticed this sudden tiny snail invasion several times when I’ve moved Rams

Now you mention it that makes a lot of sense.

 

[CooKieS]

Same conclusion about rams for me, I'll try them again only from a reputable breeder.

Tank looks very good.

 

[Matt @ ScapeEasy]

I've heard Bolivian rams are much better in this regard, they also colour up nicely when they get older than most are in the shops... German rams are indeed tricky though, weirdly some of the cheapest specimens have done the best for me in the past...

 

[alto]

Bolivian rams are much better in this regard

Yes and no
They can be absolute bullies as well
Again recommendation is to keep a group

This species should be maintained in a group therefore an aquarium with a base measuring at least 90 ∗ 45 cm or equivalent is recommended.

I’d suggest 7 rather than a mere 5

Several shipments have come in with some sort of internal issue, they look a bit thin but rather than responding to increased feeding, they continue to slowly lose weight until quite emaciated, then death
Whatever this is doesn’t seem particularly contagious and some within the group seem to recover (especially if isolated from the group)
Initially I assumed internal parasites (they display typical symptom of rushing to food, then tasting/spitting, and eventually minimal food response), but levamisole~food had no effect (at least not when used as directed)

If shopping for Bolivian Rams look for plump, active fish with some color flashes

Once again, apologies to Tim for this extended Fish Commentary

 

[alto]

Thanks Tim, I feel guilty every time I wander down one of those Fish snakehands
(but obviously can’t resist )