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New Decade, New Decadence...

Hello mate,
Loving this…let me exercice my english and I’ll try to answer all your question, even if I’m not nearly as good as you regarding the ‘scientific’ aspect , my tank is still running too so I’m encountering interesting things too and made some experience too…have a nice Sunday!
 
Hey @CooKieS this conversation may interest you, but is likely to be a red rag to a bull for some as it is much less than scientific. However… We both have experience of conducting a tank to look just the way we want, when we want, so should be interesting.

Just to frame the conversation with a couple of questions:

Is it possible to run a mixed planted, high tech tank, to the same standard from twelve months onwards?

What can be done to overcome the issues at around twelve months commonplace in these sort of tanks?


Think you know what I’m getting at here, there’s a reason folks rescape yearly. Stores that run display tanks into a second or third year understand the drop in performance being referred to. Currently it is relevant to you as you have continued running your IAPLC entry tank a little longer, so intrigued to know what you’re noticing about your setup too. Yours is not so dissimilar as it uses aquarium soil, unlike some moss dominant entries that use the absolute minimum amount of soil in the setup.

Backdrop to the current situation here… Stopped thinking about this 1200 with any clarity and it ended up here. The current condition is part of a wider set of problems so looking to address them rather than just fix the algae. Not concerned about the hair algae, it’s feedback and this is useful.

The reef tank stole this 1200’s thunder, but was necessary to keep the marine setup moving. Had to quickly solve a hair algae problem that was stalling the startup on that setup. It worked out pretty quickly once the relationships holding the system in that state became clear. Marine has its own set of tools but the rules aren’t too dissimilar.

Before:

View attachment 177468

After:

View attachment 177469

Think there was a great learning to be had there regarding taking care of your systems bacterial colonies first. I believe the success of the Utricularia graminifolia setup is also due, in part, to considering the importance of all the things we rely on that we cannot see.

Currently considering the implications of my actions on the 1200 by retracing the steps that have got the tank to this place.

Think you can deeply appreciate the importance of balancing methods with aesthetic value in a tank @CooKieS . For example, compact S. repens or L. arcuata with needle sharp orange to red leaves, even deeper red H. pinnatifida to accent a spot. Those wants are all mapped on to the scape design and what the layout will permit distribution wise too.

View attachment 177470

View attachment 177471

View attachment 177472

The task set on the 1200 is to find out if you can do this outside of the first year of a setup; maintain those aesthetic practices with soil that has gone passed a year.

Ferts - The first half of the life of the 1200 has for all intents and purposes been ADA’s regime; Powersand, Bacter 100, Amazonia, Green Brighty neutral K, Green Brighty Mineral. This was supplemented with periodic additions of root tabs, pushed into the crevices of tactically placed lava rock so the task could be done blind:

View attachment 177473

View attachment 177474

View attachment 177475

View attachment 177476

View attachment 177477

Once the soil is in, if you don’t remember where the crevices are it becomes difficult to get a tab through the soil and Powersand to the base glass. Point is the replenishment of root tabs has always been primarily at the back of the setup where the Co2 mist sprays left to right and the light is strongest. It’s a high demand area.

This worked, for a good while:

View attachment 177478

Around the six month mark noticed the epiphytes required much more care so switched the dosing regime. Will get to this in a moment.

Up until this point, any nitrate and phosphate needs were catered to from the substrate and fish loading. It’s useful as anything planted into the soil has those mobile nutrients available and can make withdrawals from the bank of nutrients in the substrate. Associated with this is running the Co2 in the green with more leeway for error. N-P-Co2 balance is much more customisable with substrate dependence for the first two. Think ADA designed their products this way to decrease failure rates of patrons of their system.

The Co2 becomes the controlling aspect of the three as N and P are always available, but not the primary driver of growth. The Co2 puts a limit on the growth and the amount of photosynthesis, but the leaves go red to adapt to the conditions of high light. Instead of melt we get compact, coloured forms.

Enter alternatives to ADA’s Brighty K and Mineral… APT Zero, Tropica Premium [insert favourite brand here]. All liquid ferts with nitrate and phosphate omitted. Think the point missed here is this works with fresh soil that is loaded but is on a downward trajectory. The ‘lean’ dosing isn’t lean at all, it’s just a system that takes advantage of location and regulation of the transportation of nutrients within the plants.

Back to the epiphytes… same source water but integration of KNO3 and KH2PO4 into the water column dosing. Source water is RODI taken all the way down to 0TDS. Sample is sent off for analysis every three months and the unit is on a conservative maintenance schedule. It’s as much control as you can have on the input water.

The intervention to boost epiphyte health…

Full breakdown of the new weekly inputs in ppm:

KNO3

NO3 5
N 1.13
K 3.15

KH2PO4

PO4 1
P 0.33
K 0.41

CaCl

Cl 5.11
Ca 2.89
dGH 0.4

CaSO4.2H20

Ca 9.31
S 7.45
dGH 1.3

MgSO4.7H2O

Mg 3.94
S 5.2
dGH 0.91

K2CO3

K 7.92
CO3 6.08
dKH 0.57

Condensed:

NO3 5
N 1.13
K 11.48
PO4 1
P 0.33
Cl 5.11
Ca 12.2
S 12.65
Mg 3.94
CO3 6.08

Ca : K : Mg

12.2: 11.48 : 3.94

(Note: when K is input over the week that ratio is targeted to be closer to 3:2:1 consistently)

This carried the tank through another three months. Overall health was good although there were losses on colouration. Adapted this by changing some species out that were more colourful by virtue rather than conditions.

View attachment 177486

With the ‘slightly’ more comprehensive water column fertilisation the viable range of Co2 concentration got tighter and required more management. It was workable though. Further round of root tabs in during this period. Nothing too shabby, but again, slowly getting away from good form and colouration:

View attachment 177487

Finally… The final quarter of the year bringing us to today.

Shifted over to DIY Tropica TPN+ using ammonium nitrate for N source. No root tabs.

No idea of the condition of the soil at this point. However, two things are pretty certain; the CEC of the soil will have been on a downward trajectory and the buffering capacity of the soil will be diminished.

Decided to place a bet on letting growth go emersed to increase Co2 respiration from the roots. Alter the pH locally in the soil.

Plan was to continue with periodic root tabs, then lean more heavily on water column fertilisation with the root tabs as a safety net. Started the emersed on one side to see if there was any notable difference in growth from the soil. This was between the emersed right and the still submersed left.

View attachment 177488

View attachment 177489

View attachment 177490

The tank got a bump on the right side so continued with letting the left side join the party.

View attachment 177491

It was going well. But then against better judgement, all this growth was cut back to submersed.

View attachment 177492

No availability for maintenance in November so the idea was to improve distribution around the tank with Co2 dialled in, then let it grow out again this month in my absence. Confused my needs with the tanks needs unfortunately, it would have been better to leave it growing in hindsight.

This slow shift towards emersed growth and greater levels of dosing via the water column may have worked. The high uptake from the emersed growth got a reaction from some species located submersed and sharing the soil, bringing out signature colouration of lean water column conditions. It was a very localised difference.

If I had to guess, would say slowing the additional Co2 respiration from the roots of the emersed growth in one go (by trimming back to submersed) was a really, really bad move.

And here we are today…

Long one @CooKieS but interested to know if any of these experiences chime with your experience?

I know you can elongate the downward trajectory of a tanks life by simply using massive piles of soil… ADA show tanks and Green Aqua displays for example.

Some ADA display tanks have even been stripped out, had the soil replaced and then the hard scape/plants returned to give them a second burst of life. That’s cheating 😂

Wonder if I’m just pissin’ in the wind here trying to get too much of a good thing. Is it that everything simply has a beginning, a middle and an end with regards to maintaining these plant forms to that standard?

Anyway… that’s this tank, one of many. The algae will be destroyed and beer will be drank to celebrate in due course.. Just wondered if you’ve seen any examples of comp spec tanks run longer term, or had success longer term with these plant forms/colouration personally?
Can this post be made into a sticky? Best post I've ever read on ukaps.
 
Ding Ding 🛎

Round One…

Blackout over and cut the background stems, they’ll grow back quick under EI so not worth faffing around:

1637687381221.jpeg


Any loose bits of hardscape that have hair algae on that you can remove, give them a scrub with a toothbrush in the sink:

1637687471361.jpeg


Glassware and pipework clean so you maximise flow from your filters:

1637688546999.jpeg


This time only the prefilter sponges got exchanged for fresh sponges. Will be clearing filters more than once this week, but given the tank has just come out of a blackout it isn’t worth upsetting the media just yet.

Unlike the stems, slower growers can’t really be trimmed to remove the hair algae wholesale. You can however pluck off the odd leaves to stimulate new growth:

1637687572970.jpeg


Drain the tank. With the water level down you can remove some of the hair algae with a dry paper towel. The blackout weakens it so it comes off a little more readily as long strands that stick to the dry paper without breaking:

1637687759848.jpeg


300 ml of water mixed with 30ml of Phyton-Git Sol in a spray bottle:

1637687897694.jpeg


Mist the entire tank and be thorough, you want the phytoncide on everything if possible:

1637687969584.jpeg


Leave for ten minutes and have a brew. Then refill:

1637688063234.jpeg


If using RO that’s aerated like here, don’t be lazy if you’re doing maintenance whilst Co2 would normally be on the ramp up.

Time once refilled:

1637688202667.jpeg


The ramp up should have started at 11:00 and lights on at 13:00 :

1637688274682.jpeg


Add those missing minutes and delay the lighting until the entire Co2 ramp up has elapsed. In this case the ramp needs to continue to 13:42 to make up the full two hours. Set an alarm and delay the lights :

1637689321935.jpeg


Start as you mean to go on. EI demands excellent Co2 application and nothing less.

Micros in on day one:

1637689501438.jpeg


We trimmed so availability of micronutrients is priority, macros can come from the soil for day one. There’s K in the water change water.

Day two with macros going in you’ll get a lot of pearling with EI. With the hair algae a) weakened from the blackout, b) suffering with inhibited growth from the phytoncide and c) contending with plant surfaces pouring with oxygen you get it detaching.

Before:

1637689859720.jpeg


After:

1637689887457.jpeg


It then becomes important that you do some further water changes throughout the week and keep the filters clear. With the hair algae detaching, you’ll find a lot gathers inside your filters. Clean them. Change water.

Most things will clear with one round of Phyton-Git spray, Buce and Anubias tend to take a couple of sprays.

Being realistic this process will take a few weeks and some rounds of trimming to rid the system entirely. In the meantime, will see what can be removed from the planting to improve distribution now that the tank is under EI.
 
Ding Ding 🛎

Round One…

Blackout over and cut the background stems, they’ll grow back quick under EI so not worth faffing around:

View attachment 177615

Any loose bits of hardscape that have hair algae on that you can remove, give them a scrub with a toothbrush in the sink:

View attachment 177616

Glassware and pipework clean so you maximise flow from your filters:

View attachment 177624

This time only the prefilter sponges got exchanged for fresh sponges. Will be clearing filters more than once this week, but given the tank has just come out of a blackout it isn’t worth upsetting the media just yet.

Unlike the stems, slower growers can’t really be trimmed to remove the hair algae wholesale. You can however pluck off the odd leaves to stimulate new growth:

View attachment 177617

Drain the tank. With the water level down you can remove some of the hair algae with a dry paper towel. The blackout weakens it so it comes off a little more readily as long strands that stick to the dry paper without breaking:

View attachment 177618

300 ml of water mixed with 30ml of Phyton-Git Sol in a spray bottle:

View attachment 177619

Mist the entire tank and be thorough, you want the phytoncide on everything if possible:

View attachment 177620

Leave for ten minutes and have a brew. Then refill:

View attachment 177621

If using RO that’s aerated like here, don’t be lazy if you’re doing maintenance whilst Co2 would normally be on the ramp up.

Time once refilled:

View attachment 177622

The ramp up should have started at 11:00 and lights on at 13:00 :

View attachment 177623

Add those missing minutes and delay the lighting until the entire Co2 ramp up has elapsed. In this case the ramp needs to continue to 13:42 to make up the full two hours. Set an alarm and delay the lights :

View attachment 177628

Start as you mean to go on. EI demands excellent Co2 application and nothing less.

Micros in on day one:

View attachment 177629

We trimmed so availability of micronutrients is priority, macros can come from the soil for day one. There’s K in the water change water.

Day two with macros going in you’ll get a lot of pearling with EI. With the hair algae a) weakened from the blackout, b) suffering with inhibited growth from the phytoncide and c) contending with plant surfaces pouring with oxygen you get it detaching.

Before:

View attachment 177630

After:

View attachment 177631

It then becomes important that you do some further water changes throughout the week and keep the filters clear. With the hair algae detaching, you’ll find a lot gathers inside your filters. Clean them. Change water.

Most things will clear with one round of Phyton-Git spray, Buce and Anubias tend to take a couple of sprays.

Being realistic this process will take a few weeks and some rounds of trimming to rid the system entirely. In the meantime, will see what can be removed from the planting to improve distribution now that the tank is under EI.

Excellent process detail. These posts really need combining into a tutorial article and making a sticky in the algae section!
 
How about Amano shrimp, black mollies etc?
To be honest I’ve never seen amano shrimp eating significant amounts of mature hair algae in a system where they have other food options.

Clean up crew have their uses, but they mostly help indirectly. Cherry shrimp going after biofilm and die off after treatment have dislodged a lot of the hair algae, even though they won’t necessarily eat it, this helps a lot.

Excellent process detail. These posts really need combining into a tutorial article and making a sticky in the algae section!

Think the journals are enough. They are demonstrative of method. Just need to be clear about the specifics of each of these scenarios.
 
Day four after treatment, lights on today…

Before:

1637846252303.jpeg


After:

1637846297188.jpeg


Still only done the one water change. There’s a few remnants of hair algae which still need tackling. Doing okay though.

Will do the next water change later today at the end of the fourth photoperiod. We’ve had micro/macro/micro/macro so far and want to do more trimming, tomorrow is another micro day.

Looking at improving flow about the tank. For starters, have ditched the trident fern towards the front:

1637846494782.jpeg


Big space in the soil for something now and will be moving some of the plants around. New look, more hardscape on show, better setup for EI hopefully. There’s the wood and black lava to put back in view on the front left and flow around that area is pretty decent now. Nice little area to play with.

Eleocharis is coming back and pushing through the moss:

1637846683357.jpeg


There’s still hair algae tangled up in there:

1637846725538.jpeg


Will tackle this tonight; remove moss, reveal the eleocharis again and trim level. Big water change to pull out any hair algae in suspension.

The back needs less obstruction as well so will be moving some of the sets in the back on another session. Move the R. bonsai for starters.

1637846976056.jpeg


May scrap the arcuata entirely to give the Hyptis a proper place to live, rather than it being crammed in the less than ideal spot currently. Bolbitis needs thinning and can reveal more of the wood on show again with better flow through that area as well.

Anyway, that’s the progress so far. A few interventions four days ago, but only took an hour and half to do everything in the other post. Not too bad four days later and much more manageable.
 
Brilliant explanation on tackling the algae and have to agree with @Wookii even copying and pasting into a sticky thread for future would be great as explained so well. Thanks Geoffrey 😊
 
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On the topic of blackouts, I've read about doing a 2nd round of a 72-hour blackout to weaken the algae further - after the plants have been given a chance to 'recover' a bit from the first blackout, but while the algae is still weakened. Would that be something to consider?
 
Brilliant explanation on tackling the algae and have to agree with @Wookii even copying and pasting into a sticky thread for future would be great as explained so well. Thanks Geoffrey 😊

This is problematic @Deano and being honest, not sure there is any benefit to putting this stuff out there beyond this journal.

For example, someone reached out outside of this forum to ask how the UG tank is run. Explained the steps and pointed them to the UG journal. Got called a f*##ing idiot and a tw#*. It’s not much fun mate 😂

As before, it’s demonstrative in journal format and specific. Most importantly, we have a relationship underneath all these comments. You can ask questions about whatever is being done, we can chat about it, maybe that technique only works in certain circumstances… a guide is final. Don’t usually bring stuff up unless it delivers a repeated outcome that others might like to try. They are just suggestions, not advice.

Think you all get that this is just sharing ‘what is done’ here in context, with the hope it will make your hobby a bit easier. Still requires folks to consider whether this tank is run like their tank? Will this work for me?

On the topic of blackouts, I've read about doing a 2nd round of a 72-hour blackout to weaken the algae further - after the plants have been given a chance to 'recover' a bit from the first blackout, but while the algae is still weakened. Would that be something to consider?

Not heard that one before @erwin123 , do you have a link so I can understand the circumstances where it is being used? Can reply properly then.
 
It sad but I’ve encountered keyboard warriors like that many times on other forums - this forum is a paradise of civility compared to most.

Keyboard warriors like that are paper thin, if you met them in the street they wouldn’t even be able to hold eye contact! Ultimately you have to learn to pity them, as it’s their only release for their inadequacies in the real world. Once you do that, their aggression ultimately becomes comical!
 
Not heard that one before @erwin123 , do you have a link so I can understand the circumstances where it is being used? Can reply properly then.

This idea was from Tom Barr's post "Multiple blackout method for algae control".
 

This idea was from Tom Barr's post "Multiple blackout method for algae control".

Yes, this could potentially work well. It’s just multiple rounds if needs must. Would consider what type of algae you are trying to rid the system of, understand why it is there in the first place. You can keep doing blackout after blackout and ‘X’ will return if you haven’t put your finger on the contributing factor(s). Also thanks for sharing @erwin123 not read this before.

Some of the problems mentioned (paleness of plants, elongated growth) I haven’t seen with 72 hour blackouts with high surface agitation added in. It’s a pretty basic assumption, but why would higher continuous o2 input be a bad idea during a prolonged dark period? Might as well maximise o2 input so any fluctuations in demand can be met. Just a thought. Only requires the lifting of a lily pipe, spray bar or air pump to implement.

Unlike Tom, the previous suggestion in this thread does involve a magic potion to solve problems wholesale… because quite frankly, haven’t got the time to mess about. Phyton-Git has always performed with no downsides. Over and over. Can’t vouch for other products though as have never used them. So unlike Tom, not particularly against paying for something that at least does the job with no appreciable downsides. This sort of lands on how quickly you want the problem gone and what method you prefer?

On the topic of blackouts, I've read about doing a 2nd round of a 72-hour blackout to weaken the algae further - after the plants have been given a chance to 'recover' a bit from the first blackout, but while the algae is still weakened. Would that be something to consider?

Yes consider it, of course. It’s one more thing to try if you’re up against a tank wide problem.

Would add that both Tom and myself suffer from a bit of a delusion… there’s an assumption that the plants in someone’s tank aren’t on deaths door tank wide before starting a blackout. In reality a lot of folks would have tried multiple things and be at their wits end before beginning a blackout.

In this case you have to consider if the tank has gone over a tipping point and requires more than switching off the lights. Could go and on about the exceptions here, it would be pointless. It’s far better to deal with a specific tank with a specific owner and look at how they got into this position in the first place. That way we learn how to avoid these situations.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure…
 
Do you know what Phyton-git is made from? Does it cause damage to mosses, liverworts etc like liquid carbon or is it not as harsh?

Dean asked this @Conort2

Post #615 repeated below:

Hey @Deano3

Straight up… don’t know. Here’s the Wiki page on Phytoncide and the product I’m referring to is ADA’s Phyton-Git Sol (the Sol is just a version that is a thicker solution). Have friends in Asia who seem aware of the use of phytoncides for gardening as commonly as we are aware of the use of seaweed extract as a growth hormone here. Phytoncide just doesn’t seem to be a thing in the west, no clue why.

Discussion in this thread but not many conclusions, sort of descended into a debate about cost rather than overall utility of Phyton-Git. Viktor of Green Aqua seemed to be a fan of Phyton-Git a decade ago, as you can see in the thread. It’s a nice to have in the toolkit.

Personally, have had to do maintenance for folks and turned some pretty disastrous tanks around using this stuff. It obviously involved more than just a ‘magic potion’, correcting dosing/lighting/Co2 as well. But it’s excellent at killing the offender [insert algae here] but leaving the plant tissues intact to fight on with no damage from application. The same scenario using excel/glutaraldehyde or hydrogen peroxide would have been a non-starter due to tissue damage.

It is an end game solution for Cyanobacteria/BGA as well but does leave one wondering what it might do to other bacterium we may not want coming to harm. However, have seen it clear several tanks of BGA successfully and it never returned in those systems thereafter.

The other bit:

Does it cause damage to mosses, liverworts etc

Not from experience, no. That is why it is so useful in some situations. Wouldn’t necessarily use it in every situation.
 
Hmmm may be a good one to add to the tool kit. I have good success with glut but it is a harsh chemical. To be fair good husbandry and co2 is the best remedy but I took my eye off the ball a little while ago and hadn’t realised I’d ran out of co2.

Must say the information is this thread is invaluable. Better than stuff you’ll find in any books relating to aquascaping!
Not from experience, no. That is why it is so useful in some situations. Wouldn’t necessarily use it in every situation.
 
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