• You are viewing the forum as a Guest, please login (you can use your Facebook, Twitter, Google or Microsoft account to login) or register using this link: Log in or Sign Up
  • You can now follow UKAPS on Instagram.

New filter - which one?

Konsa

Member
Joined
20 Nov 2010
Messages
775
Location
Lostock Hall
Hi
@ian_m I have the JBL e1501 running on one tank.Its all good but have notised the small coarse filter sponges are like brand new and spotlessly clean after half an year as is rest of the filter as I use prefilter rinsed weekly.There was very little muck settled in middle of top basket just under the power head plastic.I dont quite get how is the flow running but do U think is possible to bypass the media.It is weird to see no mulm on sponges lower in filter and on them small ones that are supposed to get dirty first.Dont really like to open it as find it pain to close properly after I do.
It may be just the prefilter doing great work but have huge bioload atm and the prefilter is not that fine at all.
What are your thoughts about that?
Regards Konsa
 

Michal550

Member
Joined
7 Sep 2014
Messages
98
Hi
@ian_m I have the JBL e1501 running on one tank.Its all good but have notised the small coarse filter sponges are like brand new and spotlessly clean after half an year as is rest of the filter as I use prefilter rinsed weekly.There was very little muck settled in middle of top basket just under the power head plastic.I dont quite get how is the flow running but do U think is possible to bypass the media.It is weird to see no mulm on sponges lower in filter and on them small ones that are supposed to get dirty first.Dont really like to open it as find it pain to close properly after I do.
It may be just the prefilter doing great work but have huge bioload atm and the prefilter is not that fine at all.
What are your thoughts about that?
Regards Konsa
This is common problem with them. I have the 901 and 1501 and the both have the issue. I'm done with JBL products the filters are crap, filter hose cleaning brush falls apart after using couple times and the co2 indicator loosing liquid.
 

Konsa

Member
Joined
20 Nov 2010
Messages
775
Location
Lostock Hall
Hi
Its just a thought I have in back of my head.Im not saying that it is bypassing the media.I did put some new siporax about a month ish ago my have to open it to see if it has changed colour. If I have time later today.That will tell me where the flow is reaching in the media I suppose
Regards Konsa
 

dw1305

Expert
UKAPS Team
Joined
7 Apr 2008
Messages
12,073
Location
nr Bath
Hi all,
It may be just the prefilter doing great work but have huge bioload atm and the prefilter is not that fine at all. What are your thoughts about that?
If you have plenty of oxygen going into the filter you probably won't get as much biofilm development, even with a heavy bioload. People vastly over-estimate how much media you physically need for successful nitrification.

When you open the filter up you can tell a lot about the oxygen levels in the filter by the nature of the biofilm. If it mainly consists of a lot of fine black particles these are the (largely carbon) remnants left when the microbial "low hanging fruit" (short chain carbohydrates, proteins etc.) have been consumed ("oxidised").

This is the situation when the microbial activity has been aerobic and the filter media hasn't been oxygen depleted.

This complete oxidation process is used in waste-water treatment, it is the "extended aeration system". This is from <"Role of the Biofilms in Wastewater Treatment">
....The extended aeration system is one of the modifications of the activated sludge process. It is a complete mixed system that provides biological treatment for the removal of biodegradable organic waste under aerobic conditions. Air may be supplied by mechanical or diffused aeration means. The raw sewage directly flows into the aerobic digestion chamber where all the solids are digested by aerobic bacteria. This is possible because the sewage is aerated for a minimum of 24 h, giving vastly increased time for almost complete digestion of all solids. Since there is complete stabilization in the aeration tank, there is no need for a separate sludge digester. Furthermore, there is no need for a primary settling tank as organic solids are allowed to settle in the aeration tank due to their long retention time. The major advantages of extended aeration include ease of construction as well as operation, high oxygen transfer efficiency, absence of odor, less sludge yield.....
That is also one of the advantages of having a coarser sponge pre-filter, it doesn't inhibit flow too much, and more flow means more oxygen.

As you increase the bioload (or deplete the oxygen) the nature of the biolfilm changes and you begin to get a much more extensive, sticky and complex biofilm. This is what people who don't keep planted tanks are often aiming for in their filters, a system with fluctuating zones of REDOX where both aerobic nitrification and anaerobic denitrification are occurring across an oxygen gradient, spatially separated by only a few mm.

The problem with this is that you have the risk of the biofilm later becoming too deep, aerobic nitrification ceasing and ammonia levels building in the tank water.

If you look at the <"Kaldnes (K1)"> type of media, used in moving bed filters, one of the design features is to continually shed the biofilm, maintaining it at an optimal depth.

cheers Darrel
 

Michal550

Member
Joined
7 Sep 2014
Messages
98
Hi
Its just a thought I have in back of my head.Im not saying that it is bypassing the media.I did put some new siporax about a month ish ago my have to open it to see if it has changed colour. If I have time later today.That will tell me where the flow is reaching in the media I suppose
Regards Konsa
it is bypassing the media. there was many guys couple years ago on Polish forums talking about having the same issue . How dirty are your hoses? my outlet hose is as dirty as the inlet hose which mean the water coming out the filter in not clean when on my eheim classic the out hose is much cleaner then the inlet.
 

Fred13

Member
Joined
13 Jul 2016
Messages
263
Location
Athens
I cant understand how its possible to bypass the media. I mean, structure is so simple on how it works.. Water enters through the prefilter from the side and then flows upwards through the media. How is it possible to bypass?

Btw i have the jbl 1501 , updated to 1502 with just the filter basket.

And if water bypass media you should have huge air pockets therefore you would hear the filter.

As for the outlet hose, it can be dirty as well. Biofilm and diatoms can establish in the outlet hose.

Please ensure that you have this problem because it sounds really weird to me.
 

Konsa

Member
Joined
20 Nov 2010
Messages
775
Location
Lostock Hall
Hi all
Thanks @dw1305 for the extensive reply.Much appreciated.I think the prefilter is just right as I dont have any flow reduction even when dirty.I doubt that the media is oxygen depleted as it smelling fresh when I open the filter.I know how a filter went bad stinks like rotten eggs before when I used floss and no prefilter and all muck was in filter.Water in tank seems well polished too.
I run surface skimmer that aids the plants in oxigenation too.Just my Tetratec I run on my other tank with less stock and same prefilter have some more debris in the sponges inside.
Regards Konsa
 

Kayne

Member
Thread starter
Joined
12 Jul 2014
Messages
42
The power heads were low cost Hidom power heads powering CO2 diffusors. The power heads have inline inputs and outputs. One at 1300 litres/286 gals per hr and the other at at 800 litres/177 gals per hr. If starting again I would have both at 286 gal/hr. They were from eBay. The 286 gal and above fit 3/4" plastic pipe work without too much fiddling. The larger goes through a CO2 diffuser and into a 3/4" DIY spray bar. The smaller unit again through a CO2 diffusor but into a DIY swan neck to give a direct current into the tank. The power heads and Ehiem spray bar outlet are all at the back of the tank and hidden by large Anubias

Hope this is of some use..
Thanks very useful. I'm still learning alot and this forum has been a great help. So not including whatever turnover the eheim gives you you have around 2000 l/h flow rate. Any pictures of your tank around here?

If you have plenty of oxygen going into the filter you probably won't get as much biofilm development, even with a heavy bioload. People vastly over-estimate how much media you physically need for successful nitrification.

When you open the filter up you can tell a lot about the oxygen levels in the filter by the nature of the biofilm. If it mainly consists of a lot of fine black particles these are the (largely carbon) remnants left when the microbial "low hanging fruit" (short chain carbohydrates, proteins etc.) have been consumed ("oxidised").
Thanks @dw1305 some really good info there and elsewhere on the forum. Really learnt alot about water chemistry and filtration from various posts of yours.
 
Last edited:

dw1305

Expert
UKAPS Team
Joined
7 Apr 2008
Messages
12,073
Location
nr Bath
Hi all,
I doubt that the media is oxygen depleted as it smelling fresh when I open the filter.....Water in tank seems well polished too.
That sounds about right, and I wouldn't worry too much about anything else.
I know how a filter went bad stinks like rotten eggs before when I used floss and no prefilter and all muck was in filter.
If you have the "rotten eggs" smell it means that you've had some hydrogen sulphide (H2S) production. When you have anaerobic nitrate reduction (denitrification) you can easily topple over the edge and get <"anoxic sulphate reduction"> which produces H2S. Even then it can smell worse that it really is, because we can detect really low levels of H2S, something like 5 ppb (5 x 10-9).
Thanks @dw1305 some really good info there and elsewhere on the forum. Really learnt alot about water chemistry and filtration from various posts of yours.
Thank-you, I hope the posts help, but I'm never entirely sure.

It would be fair to say that the (particularly the buffering/pH & <"cycling/nitrification">) posts have received a mixed reaction.

I think one of the issues is that if you promote ,<"simple techniques"> for successful tank management people don't stagger from one disaster to the next and the whole need for pH buffers, water test kits, anion exchange resins, activated carbon, medications, <"special filtration media">, <"special aquarium lamps">, HMA filters, RO units etc just disappears.

If I tell people (on other forums) that:
  • rain, or UK tap, water are safe to use in your tank (with certain provisos),
  • that plants are the most important factor in biological filtration (because "plant/microbe" filtration is much more effective than "microbe only" filtration),
  • that oxygen is more important than ammonia in biological filtration,
  • that nitrification is mainly carried out by Archaea in aquariums or
  • that floating (or emergent) plants are a more sensitive measure of nutrient levels than any test kits,
I will receive a lot of disbelieving comments, but all of these statements can be verified by a quick look at the scientific literature.

Threads like <"The Soil Substrate or Dirted...">, and the images from it, should be linked in all over the WWW, they are simple mechanisms for successful tank management.

cheers Darrel
 
Last edited:

Oldguy

Member
Joined
27 Aug 2018
Messages
401
Location
Gloucestershire, UK
Any pictures of your tank around here?
Some old pics. Will try and take a few newer ones. Not much of a photographer.

Transition to high tech, cryptocorynes showing strong growth

P1040004.JPG




Low tech many years ago. The Royal Farlowella were a spawning pair. Lost the lot in a heater malfunction. Restocked with small fish only as above.

IMG_1129.jpg




Showing tank set into chimney, flush with the wall. Tank needs some thinning out! That will teach me to have a holiday.

P1010186.JPG






 

dw1305

Expert
UKAPS Team
Joined
7 Apr 2008
Messages
12,073
Location
nr Bath
Hi all,
Showing tank set into chimney, flush with the wall.
Hippeastrums are nice. I particularly like the white one, do the flowers last long? I have a similar dark red one to yours, but it flowers later (March) and the flowers only last a couple of days.

I've just retrieved a <"Large Narcissus Bulb fly"> maggot from the <" H. Exotic Star"> (in the Orchids thread), but it is quite a big bulb so it should recover. I know now that if a Hippeastrum suddenly starts producing a lot of offset bulbs this is likely to be the reason.

I don't have any snowdrops or Narcissus left in the garden in sunny spots, only in the shady areas, which I assume is also down to the Bulb flies. The adult fly is quite interesting, it is a <"Bumblebee mimic"> and you could probably collect twenty from out garden on any sunny day in May.

cheers Darrel
 
Last edited:

Konsa

Member
Joined
20 Nov 2010
Messages
775
Location
Lostock Hall
Hi all
Was doing maintenance and opened filter.I can clearly see flow has hit all media in the filter and has about 50 mini snails on bottom of the filter too.
Filter as expected spotlessly clean
Regards Konsa
 

dw1305

Expert
UKAPS Team
Joined
7 Apr 2008
Messages
12,073
Location
nr Bath
Hi all,
has about 50 mini snails on bottom of the filter too.
They maybe <"eating the biofilm">, but I don't think it matters.

I have Snails, Asellus (and often Black-worms) in the filters, they seem to find their way in even with a pre-filter sponge etc. probably when they are pretty small. I don't tend to open the filters up very often, so it maybe more noticeable because of that.

The linked paper also suggests that high hydraulic rates aren't a barrier to microbial nitrification, but that high organic carbon levels are.

So if you have a disagreement with a poster who tells you that filters are designed to suck up organic debris and that the bacteria can't process the ammonia if the water is flowing too quickly, just post the link to <"Application of high rate nitrifying trickling filters to remove low concentrations of ammonia from reclaimed municipal wastewater"> and then stand well back.

cheers Darrel
 

Oldguy

Member
Joined
27 Aug 2018
Messages
401
Location
Gloucestershire, UK
do the flowers last long?
About ten days. We have 18 in pots in the conservatory all bought over many years. Wife won't let me buy any more. They get watered with aquarium water. The photo was from last year, they are all dormant at present.

Must be on the lookout for the Narcissus Bulb fly. Mimics are interesting but this one sounds like bad news. I thought lily beetles were bad enough.
 

dw1305

Expert
UKAPS Team
Joined
7 Apr 2008
Messages
12,073
Location
nr Bath
Hi all,
I thought lily beetles were bad enough.
We have those as well, and <"Solomon's [URL='https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?pid=698'] Seal Sawflies">. [/URL]
About ten days. We have 18 in pots in the conservatory all bought over many years.
I might be tempted, do you know the cultivar name of the white one?
Wife won't let me buy any more.
I'm just about to have another divide of the Eucharis from the same thread.

eucharis-jpg.jpg


I'll donate it, just tell her it isn't a Hippeastrum, and you didn't buy it.

cheers Darrel
https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?pid=698
 

Oldguy

Member
Joined
27 Aug 2018
Messages
401
Location
Gloucestershire, UK
cultivar name of the white one
Sorry I don't. I just buy them at Lidl/Aldie and take a chance on them being like the picture on the box. They are meant for the Christmas trade, but with care and feeding post flowering, they grow and flower year in and year out. Sometime I get one from a garden centre that has gone past its sell by date in the discount stand. You then know what the flower will be like. Obviously their flowering time moves to a more natural time of the year. (I did, however, buy some beauties from Holland).

it isn't a Hippeastrum
Like how your mind works, an Amaryllis by another name. Would love some thanks. Will pm you
 

Kayne

Member
Thread starter
Joined
12 Jul 2014
Messages
42
Thank-you, I hope the posts help, but I'm never entirely sure
They do and thank you for more reading in that post. I've spent half my day reading through them and inevitably following more links in those posts too

Now a question where do you get your pre filter foam blocks from. Saw an old post by you where you use a foam sheet and rolled it and sewed it up but I think ive seen more recent ones where you said you buy a block. Although i do have a block in my current internal im not sure what ppi it is and it also has a hole all the way through the middle so i wouldnt be able to use that - though I could probably source the replacement foam and use it. Do you then perforate the intake pipe or just allow it to pull the water through the end via the sponge?

@Oldguy that tank is really nice. Looks super clean - didnt think people really used UG filters anymore as they were considered outdated?

Still no nearer to picking a filter. I need to measure the cabinet but im drawn to the jbl or aquael as aside from the fx6 (which i know wont fit in the cabinet) they are the highest flow rated. Though ive heard lots of good things about eheim (Maybe on older filters but the new ones cant be terrible)
 

dw1305

Expert
UKAPS Team
Joined
7 Apr 2008
Messages
12,073
Location
nr Bath
Hi all,
Saw an old post by you where you use a foam sheet and rolled it and sewed it up but I think ive seen more recent ones where you said you buy a block.
I still do a bit of both.

Because <"Rainbow Koi"> is convenient for me I usually go and get a drilled foam block from them when I'm in Melksham doing the shopping. They look like either PPI15 or PPI20 sponge. I always get the 12" x 4" x 4" blocks and just cut them down to size.

An advantage of the blocks is that you can sit a power-head on top of the block, it means you don't have to worry about the cr*p non-sticking sucker set that are meant to keep the power-head in position. You can see this arrangement in this thread <"Filtering the scape">. I'm still using the same power-head and sponge on that tank.
Although i do have a block in my current internal im not sure what ppi it is and it also has a hole all the way through the middle so i wouldnt be able to use that
I used to carefully silicon the open ended sponges to a plain 4" white tile, but over time they've all come unstuck, so now I just put a scrunch of sheet foam (to block the hole) and sit the sponge on the tile. I also use the foam sheets to make the "collars" that ensure a close fit between the pipe and the sponge. Any synthetic thread does to sew them up with (I use fishing line or acrylic button thread).

I have some filter ends where I drilled holes in a bit of pipe that was a snug fit in the central hole, but more recently I just used the Maxijet or Eheim inlet strainer scaffolds (I had these anyway) and then used the foam collar to ensure a snug fit.

Either method works.

cheers Darrel
 

Similar threads

Top