New growth but middle dying?

JoshP12

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Has anyone seen this before?

I noticed this on several of my plants and of those some were rotala rotundifolia and the others Ludwigia repens.

I am curious about what is happening here.

I suspect some kind of nutrient transfer? But why when there is no shortage of any nutrient and why at that part instead of lower leaves?

I should note that I planted the tank (dark cycled first) about 2 weeks ago.

Cheers,
Josh
 

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Witcher

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If I see it right (image is not very clear) there are dark veins but tissue is brighter - that's usually lack of Mg.
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
If I see it right (image is not very clear) there are dark veins but tissue is brighter - that's usually lack of Mg.
Yes, we see a lot of chlorosis on Rotala spp. My guess is that most of it relates to magnesium (Mg) and iron (Fe) deficiencies, and <"they often go together">.

This is the <"kind of chlorosis"> you get in Rhododendron and Camellia spp., when they are grown in calcium rich (alkaline soils).

Assuming the shoot tips are as pale as they look? Then the plant is <"iron deficient">, like the ones in the photo below.

2-jpg.jpg


cheers Darrel
 

JoshP12

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Hi all,

I have followed EI guidelines for dosing, but I would say that maybe my soil has more calcium because of the first few weeks that it dark cycles (it is tropica powder).

I can dose more magnesium, but I think I’ll start with maybe some iron from micros - I’ll wait for advice based on the photo I attached.

In the original photo, one of the stems “dies” part way through, that is what I was referring to.

I uploaded a top shot. The new leaves look healthy (I think). I also highlighted the mid way death part I was mentioning.

Thanks @dw1305 and @Witcher !

Note: the redness that you see is because these were the tops from my old tank which had the stems close to the surface -- they are now turning back to green since they are 12 inches lower than they used to be. This is just more context that may be useful for us.


Josh
 

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JoshP12

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Hmm, here is the Anubias. I am totally erring on the magnesium deficiency side (they got worse since last night) —

Bizarre - I put the water in with a nice ratio of magnesium and calcium, then it goes wonky —

Maybe someone can weigh in on:
1) I suspect I should adjust my water change water magnesium amount.
2) that it is indeed a magnesium deficiency and not iron.

New leaves on the rotuntidifolia are green, so I suspect not iron.

I suspect it is NOT nitrogen deficiency as I have lots in there.

Josh
 

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dw1305

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Hi all,
New leaves on the rotuntidifolia are green, so I suspect not iron.
here is the Anubias. I am totally erring on the magnesium deficiency side (they got worse since last night) —
Assuming they are the newer leaves?

9f01f7cb-c052-4f19-81c5-81f40b61ce2e-jpeg.jpg


Then it probably is iron (Fe), but the deficiency was a while ago.

The plant can't move iron around to newer leaves and because it is an Anubias, and slow growing, these chlorotic leaves were initiated some time ago. Even if the plant now has iron available to it, it will take a while before new, dark green, leaves appear.

cheers Darrel
 

JoshP12

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Hi all, Assuming they are the newer leaves?

9f01f7cb-c052-4f19-81c5-81f40b61ce2e-jpeg.jpg


Then it probably is iron (Fe), but the deficiency was a while ago.

The plant can't move iron around to newer leaves and because it is an Anubias, and slow growing, these chlorotic leaves were initiated some time ago. Even if the plant now has iron available to it, it will take a while before new, dark green, leaves appear.

cheers Darrel

Ok, thanks Darrel! So how do I proceed now?

Do I dose iron and magnesium and wait? Do I pick 1?

I do not see any yellowing on the new leaves. I will check the newest leaf that I have — they were transferred from an old tank — I can only say that the veins have got more prominent since the past few days.

And along the iron dosing: CSM + B ? Flourish iron? Chelates dry iron? I have all three. Which one?

Josh
 
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dw1305

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Hi all,
So how do I proceed now?
Out of the nutrients that potentially cause chlorosis it is only iron (Fe) and manganese (Mn) that aren't mobile in the plant.
Do I dose iron and magnesium and wait?
Yes you probably do. All the other elements, that might be implicated (nitrogen (N), potassium (K) and magnesium (Mg), are mobile, so you should get a really quick greening when you add them (if they were deficient).
Chelates dry iron?
What is the chelator and how hard is your water? If you have hard water you may need a different chelator to FeEDTA. "Flourish Iron" is iron gluconate, so again probably not the best in hard water.

cheers Darrel
 

JoshP12

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Hi Darrel,

My water is 3:1 ca:mg at 140 ppm (that is the water going into my tank and from establishment). the minerals are provided by gypsum, Epsom salt, and potassium bicarbonate (KH= 3/4ish).

total TDS 280 ish going in.

It slowly softens throughout the week.

I attached a photo - it seems it is EDTA.

I added an EI dose of magnesium over the morning through some more Epsom salt.

Since the iron precipitates out - will that affect how often to dose etc? (I am sure there is a post on this somewhere - likely by you).

Phosphate 1-2 ppm, nitrate 20-30, potassium goes in via my bicarbonate and rotala puts the dosage in my 40 gallon reservoir at 50 ish. Once I change out anywhere from 20-40 gallons of water, I probably get 15-30 ppm added to my tank water.

EDIT: Since some reading, I think I will have to dose daily for Iron -- :/ -- I may toss in some Plantex CSM+B today (as the additional micros aren't going to hurt anything - my lighting is in check) -- and monitor for a change. Maybe, I will add the micro mix to the water change routine (I had hoped my root tabs could do it but they don't seem powerful enough for the 65 gallon vs the 10 gallon). Could I get away with doing this weekly for the dosing and that be enough or will I have to dose the iron exclusively more regularly?

Note: My pH = 7.3 ish before CO2 and about 6.2 ish after CO2.

Josh
 

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JoshP12

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Hi all,

You could try a different chelator (or a different potassium source?).

cheers Darrel

I will give this a try for now and look for FE DTPA.

The potassium source was a bonus from my carbonate source -- my water has 0 KH so I need to buffer it out with something and this seemed like a good choice.

<"pink tint" threads>: so is it common for our tanks to have a pink tinge regularly? Are most photos taken when this tinge has worn off? --- EDIT: ahh this is when the dosage is higher than .2 -- that thread refers to .5 and greater.

As a side note, how quickly will you see the response from dosing immobile nutrients (Fe and Mn) vs mobile nutrients (the rest). I am wondering if my melt of lower leaves (which I attributed to a melt from planting into a new system OR light getting to them from crowding due to poor planting arrangement) may be due to some other deficiency? Based on my info above, I was not expecting to see one from the mobile nutrients -- but I did think I may not have enough micros, particularly iron (as I was waiting to see if my root tabs would do it for me).

Josh
 

JoshP12

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So interesting.

I attached another photo. I thought the light started melting it as I noticed the onset of the tearing when I increased lighting. Is it also a deficiency?

I also noticed my s repens change shortly after planting (1 day?).

it started rippling a bit and veins showed - another deficiency!? I thought it was texturing in response to healthy conditions /handinface.

Do either of these point to a macro deficiency?

Please advise on those 2 cases.
 

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Zeus.

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Do either of these point to a macro deficiency?

The number one Macro nutrient deficiency in high tech tanks is Carbon (CO2) T Barr quotes it at 98%, so is your [CO2] stable during photo period or too much light which is what drives CO2 demand?
 

JoshP12

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Hi @Zeus. !

I have been scouring the forums for every post on CO2 as I have been dialing in. Yes to all of your questions. I made a minor adjustment yesterday to reduce flow and maintain the ph drop (to reduce fuzzy 7-up look) -- basically placing diffuser under filter intake -- it works.

My profile looks something like this:

3.5 hours before light: CO2 on -- 7.3 pH
Lights on: 6.2
Ramp up to 40% Reds and other distribution of color (played until no algae anywhere) for 1 hour then ramp back down
1.5 hours before lights out CO2 off pH 6.1 ish
6.3 ish lights out

DC lime green at end and green at lights up.

I suspect it would be best to increase BPS and reduce turn on time to get that 6.1 drop by lights on, cut it earlier, then let it rise back up kind of like this:
upload_2020-3-31_15-46-5.png


But, one thing at a time -- if your advice would be to focus THAT as my main priority before fixing those other micro/macro, then I can shift my focus.

As always, I appreciate everyone's help :).


Cheers,
Joshua
 

JoshP12

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Hi all,

Sorry if the above message came across a bit standoff Ish; that was certainly not my intention.

I think I will go ahead and dose nitrates into the aquarium tomorrow along with a dose of iron.

I fee confident with my CO2 distribution + amounts - but I will re address it.

The thought I had was that maybe there is enough co2 and light which is forcing the plant to grow and the only way it can keep up is to move the mobile nutrients because the column is depleted - even though I don’t think it is (but I’m not in the tank - haha) - this would explain death part way on the stem because it needs to rush those nutrients ASAP? Does this seem reasonable?

It is not going to hurt anything to up the dosages - I’ll keep the thread updated.

Again, thanks so much all.

Josh
 

Zeus.

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Could do with some more tank details size and output from filters/powerheads.

Tank turnover/flow is 'King' in the CO2 injected tank, if you dont have enough flow the [CO2] will fluctuate in the tank and yet the DC or pH meter my indicate is stable, unless you move the pH meter to different parts of the tank (pH meter on a lead is very handy for this ;))
 

JoshP12

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Tank turnover/flow is 'King' in the CO2 injected tank, if you dont have enough flow the [CO2] will fluctuate in the tank and yet the DC or pH meter my indicate is stable, unless you move the pH meter to different parts of the tank (pH meter on a lead is very handy for this ;))

I've moved the pH meter to a different spot to check for it.

Could do with some more tank details size and output from filters/powerheads.

Sure thing:
Tank = 65 gallon
I had 3 power heads
2x koralia 240 GPH
1x maxi 240 GPH

XP API Filstar M -- 300gph

Skimmer

Here is the journal: https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/65-gallon-tall-planted.59423/

I acquired all these in hopes of getting super flow.

With everything going, my plants were in a hurricane, regardless of how I oriented.
I removed 2x Koralia and left the maxi above the diffuser - it blew this phenomenal fuzz through the entire aquarium swooping through everything.
I was unsatisfied continually with the flow.
I removed the maxi and noticed that the co2 bubble path was actually quite similar and that it was primarily my filter doing the work.
I situated the diffuser under intake and re took ph profile today (30 minute intervals on reading) -- seems to be the same as yesterday ... DC reads similar, perhaps slightly less green on lights on - ever so slightly.

I am much "happier" with this flow, provided it does exactly what we need it to with the co2 distribution. I will upload the ph profile from tomorrows drop.

I will also up the dosage of my nutrients for tomorrow.

Any ideas?

Cheers,
Josh
 
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JoshP12

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After more reading on flow and distribution -- I am sure that it is not only flow + distribution to lower leaves that caused this but also the nutrient deficiency -- I am going to monitor my tank more closely having dosed the magnesium and iron and see what happens. I am going to keep the flow constant to try to eliminate that (I spent the morning trying to simulate the spray bar effect and realized that I am going to try to leave and see what happens first.

It is likely that it is a combination of these issues.

Would anyone be able to help me figure out the best orientation to get the best flow for my tank (pictures attached). The koralia's along the back trying to simulate a spray bar just caused a big mess and I could not get the co2 to distribute properly.

I see lots of lilly pipes + spray bars - and I have neither. Will I be able to achieve the appropriate flow distribution with what I have?

Josh
 

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JoshP12

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Here’s an update!

I fiddled with the flow in attempts to mimic a spray bar along the back (I am building one soon) - and it failed horribly - my flow is too strong (not distributing properly).

So I attempted to mimic the Lilly pipe and in every model I see the pipe is on one side of the tank. The output of my filter was too “focused” and did not distribute as I wanted, so I removed it. Now the co2 gets sucked into the intake and gets fired straight down ... directly into a whirl of 2 koralias pointing down the aquarium. The flow isn’t too strong, yet I am getting the right turnover. Picture attached. As a great side effect - my fish swim more naturally now!!!!!!!

An interesting note is that my pH did not rise back up to the usual last night. In other words, my bubbler alone could not off gas the co2 without the surface agitation of my filter output. I rearranged the skimmer today and adjusted some stuff - hopefully tomorrow it will off gas.

In terms of dosing, I had an oversight that magnesium is also used during photosynthesis — so over this few weeks (along with other problems likely) my magnesium was being reduce and my calcium was building up (is calcium also used???).

Needless to say, I read through several posts on EI dosing and am going to be dosing as per the daily schedule micro/macro with the appropriate amounts as Epsom salt, KNO3, kh2po4, and then plantex csm-b. My root tabs won’t cut it!

Now, my carbonate source is potassium bicarbonate and I usually buffer to 4ish KH. I am wondering if the excess potassium here could cause problems - should I reduce my KH buffer down to say 3 or 2.5?

I will say that after a few days if this flow seems ok, I will adjust my co2 to see if I can dial that in better - I have no doubt that this will be lacking macro now.



Funny: I have a giant crater now in my sand that I will also have to figure out how to mitigate haha!

Cheers and thanks UKAPS,
Josh
 

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