Newbie Experiments with All-in-one

Midnight

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Well today's the day!
I mixed my first batch of 'All-in-One' based on the help provided by James and added the first 25ml to my 325ml tank.
http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3109

For the record here's a photo at day one.



The tank was set up March/April using the Dennerle fertiliser system with CO2.

You can see there's a lot of yellowing around the leaves although the Cryptocoryne Wendii and Vallis seems to be coping OK. The Cordifolius will have to go as the leaves add too much shade. Probably need to add some more light anyway.

I planted a bunch of Lilaeopsis Novea-zeelandiae today as I would prefer that to the Tennelus which seems to be a bit coarse.
If anyone's interested I will post weekly photos to show the results.
 

Midnight

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Day three
It's noticeable today there's a lot of pearling from some of the plants. In particular from the E. Barhii, E.Paniculatus and Vallis. I also removed a lot of leafs which were covered with Black Bush Algae and scraped the remaining Blue Green Algae from the front glass.

After reading up on the Lilaeopsis I'm not optimistic about it replacing the E. Tennellus, so I ordered two pots of Staurogyne sp. from The Green Machine.

I also found the drop checker which came in the Dennerle CO2 kit and have added it to the tank.
 

Midnight

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Week 2 and I managed to dose 25ml each day including the weekend.



Not a lot of going on yet. I removed some Tennellus and have planted the Staurogyne sp. (centre left) which arrived from The Green Machine last week. The Blue Green Algae has slightly increased and is visible on the tennellus but the Black Bush Algae seems have decreased since last weeks pruning session.

Probably do a 30% water change tomorrow evening.

I won't be able to dose next Saturday and Sunday so maybe will add a double dose on Friday - anyone any thoughts on that? Also compared with E.I. my 25ml weekdays dosing doesn't seem that much. Depending on the results in a few weeks I may make the next batch double strength or add 50ml daily.
 

spider72

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Midnight said:
... and added the first 25ml to my 325ml tank.
Your tank looks match bigger than 325ml :D
Midnight said:
I won't be able to dose next Saturday and Sunday so maybe will add a double dose on Friday - anyone any thoughts on that? Also compared with E.I. my 25ml weekdays dosing doesn't seem that much. Depending on the results in a few weeks I may make the next batch double strength or add 50ml daily.

Double dose on Friday evening for Sat. and Sun. should be fine. Many people is spliting weekly TPN+ dose over 2 or 3 days, so you should be fine.
Dosing mainly depends on light wattage instaled in your tank, co2 concentration and green mass volume, but your current dosing for me looks like is not enough for 325l tank. I have 180l tank (about 150l of water) moderate planted with 100Watt of light in four T5 bulbs with about 30ppm of CO2 concentration and my daily dose is 20ml and I still think that this could be not enough as my NO3 test readings are never bigger than 10mg/l. If you are going to double your dose, spread it for few days, say 35ml for 3 day and than 50ml daily.
 

GreenNeedle

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Are we talking the All in one or the DIY TPN+?

If the former then for 325ltr it should be (25ml / 200ltr) x 325ltr = 40ml (assuming same lights etc.)
If the latter then it should be (1.5ml x 325ltr) / 50 = 10ml (again assuming same lights etc.)

All these type of regimes where the dosing is quite lean can be lightly overdosed with no problems.

From your opinion on the Dennerle setup it goes to show what adding N and P can do. I assume that dennerle are one of the majority of planted manufacturers that still go by the N/P = algae principle. (alongside their 'lighting siestas are to replicate tropical thunderstorms theory. lol)

After 1 week is a little soon to start doubting the recipe and think of 'overdosing' although you should up it to the 40ml if you are on the all in one. No point in gradually upping it. Just start adding 40ml straight away and then let it work properly. Gradually upping it just means that plants go from starved, to not as starved, to nearly full, to full. May as well just go straight from starved to full and then let them adapt to flourishing again at full strength.

If the algae is abating already then you are on the right course, but thats very quick to se such change just from changing ferts.

Will be interesting to see the results as they happen although I can guess the probable outcome.

AC
 

spider72

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SuperColey1 said:
Are we talking the All in one or the DIY TPN+?

I have assumed that Midnight is refering to All In One formula by James, but I was refering to TPN+ by analogy, as this is also "all in one" type fertilizer, answering his question about double dosing for weekend, when he will be away.

PS. I have build my CO2 system to "your recipe" which I have found in your old post on this forum. It's been cheap to build and is working great. Thanks for that.
 

Midnight

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Thank you for the responses, to answer those queries:-

The recipe is James all-in-one moderated to teaspoons i.e.
Pottassium Nitrate ------------ 1 + 1/2
Potassium Phosphate ----------- 1/4
Potassium Sulphate ------------- 3/4
Magnesium Sulphate ------------ 1 + 1/2
Aqua-essentials Trace Mix ----- 1
Potassium Sorbate -------------- 1/8
Ascorbic Acid -------------------- 1/8

The tank manufacturers site says it's 325ltr tank - Akva-Stabil Effectline325.

James site does recommends around 37.5 ml per daily dose for this size but I was probably a bit cautious as and am not sure how much CO2 and light I have. (2 x 40 watt T5 tubes - I think) and I don't really know what I'm doing :)

When I mentioned about doubling the dosage or strength it was set against being conscious that I was probably being too cautious. I will up it to 40ml from tomorrow and add the additional measures on Friday evenings when I usually dissappear for the weekend.

I wasn't really expecting to see any big changes for a few weeks but there's no doubt that there's a lot more pearling going on than previous, suggesting something is happening.

As for the algae I pruned a lot of the leaves infected by the BBA last week. The BBA is quite a recent arrival. It started soon after increased the Dennerle ferts in an effort to get rid of the BGA. The BGA was an awful problem just before I went off on holiday for 3 weeks in August. Expecting the worse I was really surprised to find on my return that it wasn't too bad at all and since then it seems to be gradually receding albeit still too much for my liking.

SuperColey1 said Will be interesting to see the results as they happen although I can guess the probable outcome. - give me a clue then?
 

GreenNeedle

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As long as your CO2 is up to scratch and you up the ferts then the probable outcome will be that a couple of weeks down the line you see a vast improvement. I shouldn't worry too much about being over cautious with these recipes. Its better to double dose and bring it down than it is to underdose and then have to increase to combat the inevitable algae caused by the underdose.

AC
 

Midnight

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SuperColey1 said:
As long as your CO2 is up to scratch and you up the ferts then the probable outcome will be that a couple of weeks down the line you see a vast improvement.

Cheers SuperColey1 - I remain optimistic.

As for CO2 I have some doubts over the Dennerle system. James suggested using a drop checker so I dug out the one which came in the CO2 kit. After a day the drop checker suggested the PH was around 7 (bluey/green colour) but the Evolution digital display showed 6.8. I reset that to 6.7 with variation of 0.1. The drop checker still suggests PH7 even after I increased the bubble count and diverted more water from the filter return through the diffuser yet the Evolution varies from around 6.6 to over 6.8. -There's a lot to learn here :(
 

ceg4048

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BBA on leaves inevitably indicates poor CO2 or poor CO2 distribution. Unless you are using distilled water adjusted to a known KH value inside the dropchecker your pH readings are corrupted and will almost always show a false high. See CO2 MEASUREMENT USING A DROP CHECKER in the Tutorial Section.

Hi biomass often disrupts flow which leads to CO2 starvation in some areas so one needs to consider whether flow rates are adequate, whether trimming and removing mass satisfies aquascaping goals as well as whether injection rates are sufficient.

Cheers,
 

GreenNeedle

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This is what I have to do quite often due to my plantmass. As it affects the flow I have to search the tank for a 'new' best position for the powerhead, diffuser or both.

AC
 

Midnight

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Thanks for your comments.

I'm assuming that the Dennerle drop checker and liquid tester is 4KH. It's definitely changed to green since I upped the PH to 6.7 on the Evolution. My Tetra test 5 in 1 tabs show a KH of 3degrees. I'm sure they are not accurate so I bought a KH test kit today.

There is a problem with poor circulation as some of the filter output is diverted through the CO2 diffuser. The plantmass doesn't help to get the water from one end to the other either, so I have ordered a powerhead to help increase the circulation around all of the tank.
 

GreenNeedle

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If you are 'assuming' then it is not 4dKH. If you had 4dKH you would've bought it as a seperate item or made it yourself.

As with all manufacturers of equipment, their way is not always the best and I am guessing your instructions are something like 'add tank water to the DC and then a few drops of this solution'.

It is the tank water part that we replace with 4dKH water which means that no tank parameter variations come into the equation to give inaccurate readings.

Which diffusor are you using? Is it an internal reactor?

AC
 

Midnight

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SuperColey1 said:
....I am guessing your instructions are something like 'add tank water to the DC and then a few drops of this solution'.

The "long term test" solution comes in a little plastic vial which you add to the drop checker without diluting. The Evolution default is 4KH so that's why I made the assumption.

SuperColey1 said:
....
Which diffusor are you using? Is it an internal reactor?
AC



The internal diffuser that came with the Dennerle CO2 kit. Not sure if it's efficient.

I checked the KH and it is 50ppm CaCO3 which I think shows the Tetra 5 in 1 tabs to be accurate enough (sorry Tetra for doubting).

Two things noticable today; the Blue Green Algae is increasing -maybe the powerhead will help there; The Spatterdock leaves are growing larger.
 

Midnight

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Week 3

After 2 weeks continuous dosing with James' All-in-one' recipe


Blue Green Algae and Black Bush Algae is still growing on the leaves of many plants. I'm hoping to get the powerhead this week and add more flow. Taking advice from ceg4048 the plant mass has been trimmed back and I removed the E. Cordifolious as it's large leaves blocked out a lot of light below. The Staurogyne hasn't spread, those additional plants in the centre are the tops off the larger pot which I trimmed and replanted. Also removed a fair amount of E. Tennellus to make room. Compared with week1 the Spatterdock leaves have definitely grown larger and I think there is more growth on the C. Wendii (left of centre).

Most obvious is the amount of pearling which starts late afternoon and increases through until the lights go out at 9.30pm. You can just make out some of the bubbles in the photo.

Made up the second batch of 'All-in-one' tonight. As the first 500ml only lasted a fornight I'm wondering if there's any issues around making a double strength batch and only adding 20ml per day for 4 weeks - any thoughts?

I think there is progress but judge for yourselves!
 

Midnight

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Can't help but notice the growth rates today. The H. Polysperma has already reached the surface of the water after last week's trimming session and the leaves of the E. barthii are growing much larger than before. Still some BGA even in the flow, but I think there's been a reduction in the other algae types. I intend to do a 30% water change tomorrow afternoon then add 120ml to cover Friday, Saturday and Sunday whilst I'm away.
 

Midnight

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Week4
After 3 weeks of regular dosing with James' slightly adjusted version of All-in-one


Compare with day one


Seems to me that it is working. There's definitely more growth generally when compared to 3 weeks ago. The Crypts (left of centre) seem to be particularly lush now.

BGA & BBA is still present. I added the powerhead last Thursday and there's a big improvement in flow around the tank. The Vallis at the far right now sways in the "breeze" hopefully this will help.

This week I intend to remove the E.Tennellus (Anyone want it? - PM me with your adddress) and slightly increase the dosage to 50ml (many posts on this forum suggest overdosing rather than underdosing).

Hopefully, that will get rid of the remaining algae problems.
 

Midnight

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Week 5

After 4 weeks continuous dosing.

Plant growth is clearly improved, even the Lilaeopsis is holding it's own. I removed most of the E. tennellus and transplanted more of the Staurogyne tips. There's still too much BGA & BBA for my liking but hopefully the changes to flow and CO2 made over the past 4 weeks will eventually improve that too.

This is the final installment as I think the experiment already proves even a novice like me can use an All-in-one dosing solution to good effect.

From today I am adding 25mm of the double strength mix each day Monday to Thursday with 30% water changes plus 75ml of 'All-in-one' most Thursday afternoons before I depart for the weekend. .

I hope this thread has been interesting.
 
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