One last try

Discussion in 'General Planted Tank Discussions' started by Themuleous, 14 Dec 2009.

  1. Themuleous

    Themuleous Member

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    Well people, I stripped my 4ft down again two weeks ago today. A complete strip down, filter, new substrate, everything. And given how well my work tank is doing I figured I do the same in the hope it would sort whatever is wrong with this dam tank. Quick stats

    Tank - 48x18x18"
    Filter - Eheim 2080 1700lph
    Pump - Ehem +3000 3000lph
    Substrate - Akadama
    Ferts - 8ml TPN+ 3x a week, with 50% water change
    Hardscape - TGM welsh blue stone
    Plants - 100% HC
    CO2 - Pressurised, DC yellow.
    Lighting - 2x54w T5.

    I got the HC from this tank, as you can see its in top notch health.

    DSCF4436.jpg

    And this is what two weeks in my 4ft did to it. Growth, but very slow and the new leaves turn brown very quickly. Why, oh why, oh why?

    DSCF4633-crop.jpg

    DSCF4631-crop.jpg

    DSCF4629-crop.jpg

    I feel like I have tried literally everything (I always make a point of leaving the tank for at least three weeks after a change, normally four before trying something different to see if there is any difference). I've tried eco-complete and it is the third lot of Akadama, I tried 1 light tube and then 3 light tubes. I've tried more ferts, different ferts (previously powder ferts) more ferts, I even tried replacing the light unit to an Arcadia T8 unit at a cost of £50! I've had this tank over a year now and still nothing!

    Given the ample flow in the tank, could too much flow could be the issue? Perhaps bruising the leaves somehow?

    Does anyone else use the TGM Welsh blue stone in their tanks? TGM I guess, I've seen it!

    I've well and truly got to then end of my wick with this tank, if nothing works this time, I'll probably leave the hobby and try marines, for certain the tank would be converted to a general community tank as I've wanted to keep discus for a while now.

    Thanks all.

    Sam
     
  2. Nick16

    Nick16 Member

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    wow an eheim compact+ 30,000, i was about to say that must be hench, but its only kicking out 300lph :lol:

    anyway, i think this must be a mystery because you have tried everything like you say and not even a sign of improvement. i take it you have tried RO?
     
  3. Themuleous

    Themuleous Member

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    Sorry, dam google toolbar sodding up the words again. Its a +3000 running at 3000lph.

    Yet tried RO and rain water and 100% tap. The thing about the water is that I use tap in my other tanks and the plants in those do just fine, though those aren't what you would call 'planted'

    Yesterday I added an internal powerhead running at 1500lph, to see if despite everything its too little flow, not that I think it is.

    Sam
     
  4. JamesM

    JamesM Member

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    I'm going to suggest you need more light and more N.
     
  5. Garuf

    Garuf Member

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    I think you might have a point there, James! Though there should be plenty it does seem highly indicitive of lower light, especially since if you think that most plants that attach to woods are the same plants that cope with low light and the ones that don't are the ones perceived as being highlight/high flow plants!
     
  6. Garuf

    Garuf Member

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    Oh, also, can we see a full tank shot please? :)
     
  7. Themuleous

    Themuleous Member

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    The thing about the N is that I tried some crypts and they didnt grow either, which I would think would grow pretty well even in sub-par conditions? Also, my tap water is loaded with N?

    Having said that, it is definately worth a try, what would you suggest? How much N would suggest I use given that I'm using TPN+? Also, the light unit has a thrid bulb so I can whack that on?

    As a side thought could the rocks be leaking something?

    Sam
     
  8. Garuf

    Garuf Member

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    I've heard that some of the slates in wales contain high levels of leads and coppers but I don't know of any way of checking that that is even a problem, the only thing I can suggest is to whip the stones out and see.

    I'm not light expert so I'll leave out on an answer to that one.
     
  9. JamesM

    JamesM Member

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    The rocks could be upsetting a balance within the tank, but I think you are light limited. Add the third tube and more if you can - hc simply adores high light and co2, and struggles without it. Maybe a switch to dry powders is in order too?
     
  10. Themuleous

    Themuleous Member

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    Here you go Gareth

    DSCF4634-resize.jpg

    I'll whip the rocks out for the time being, cant hurt!!

    Just to throw it into the mix, I found this photo of the very first HC I put in the tank when I set it up, so it is possible! I never did work out then why this HC died, which it did, in exactly the same way as it is now.

    From this

    DSCF3572.jpg

    to this in a few weeks.

    DSCF3842.jpg

    I'll try the more lighting and more N as well :)

    Sam
     
  11. Themuleous

    Themuleous Member

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    Thanks guys, I know it must be rather tiresome me going on like this all the time.

    Sam
     
  12. Garuf

    Garuf Member

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    How old are the tubes? I know that older tubes are generally seen as being bad news. I know it's something ceg says isn't a phenomena but I had my gloss growing vertically in my old 60cm till I changed the tubes and it started growing normally, the only thing I changed was the tubes.
     
  13. JamesM

    JamesM Member

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    Not at all Sam, we want you to succeed :)

    Your light unit looks quite high too - can you lower it closer to the water a bit? Move your DC around a bit too - and use the fish for signs of co2 being too high. If the fish are ok, you CAN go a little higher :D
     
  14. rawr

    rawr Member

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    I'm not sure what it could be but I'd definately try more lighting. HC needs a lot of light, and even from the photo your tank looks quite dimly lit. :)
     
  15. Stu Worrall

    Stu Worrall Forum Moderator Staff Member

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    just a thought but have you tried attaching some HC to a sponge or something and growing it just under the surface? If it grows it would prove its not the water/tank thats causing the dieback. All the HC ive put in my 90cm was grown just under the surface on my rio 125 when it attached itself to some moss tied to wood.
     
  16. Vito

    Vito Member

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    im having a tough time with this plant at the moment and I have 100% HC in my tank and nothing else but only after a good year of aquascaping have i realized that i was dosing the wrong ammounts of KN03 and I have upped the dosage to proper level and the hc seems to be much greener and healthier, the leave are so tiny in conparison to when I was growing it emmersed, I have the co2 at 4BPS minimum and got the ceramic diffuser running into the intake and I just have a U shaped outlet that seems to give good circulation as I have placed the drop checker in many spots to ensure everywhere is co2 enriched. One thing im not so sure about is temperature, I have read the cold can effect them I dont know what and ideal temperature is but I would crank it up a few degrees.
     
  17. john starkey

    john starkey Member

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    Hi Sam,one point on the tropica + thing,as you may remember my tap water is loaded with N yet i still dose 8ml per day five days a week and it doesent seem to be doing it any harm,
    regards john.
     
  18. Fred Dulley

    Fred Dulley Member

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    With a PAR meter you can rule out whether it's light or not. A reading of 100 just above the gravel is perfect for HC.
    How do you know that the tap water is loaded with N+P. Water company stats?
     
  19. plantbrain

    plantbrain Expert

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    HC is a very under demanding weed.
    That is with respect to light and nutrients.

    That leaves only CO2, you can see how easily it grows with any number of fertilizer and sediments using the DSM.

    It grows easily on my emergent wood, on my filter sponge etc.
    When the CO2 goes south, so does the plant.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  20. dw1305

    dw1305 Expert

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    Hi all,
    Sam wrote
    .
    That is not necessarily true through-out the whole year. It depends a little bit upon the source of the nitrates (agricultural run-off or "waste water" via the sewage works), but in the winter when the flow in the river (that is either feeding a reservoir or from which the water is directly abstracted) will be much greater. The greater volume of water dilutes any pollutants, and the water is then much lower in nitrates etc. The same happens to the effluent stream flowing to the sewage works, it is more dilute in winter.

    If the source of your nitrates are largely agricultural, as well as the greater dilution effect from increased rainfall, there are less livestock on the fields, and most importantly no application of nitrogenous fertilisers to crops. Our tap water will contain less than 10ppm NO3 at the moment , but this will rise to over 30ppm in the spring when a large amount of nitrogen is applied to the fields.

    It's only if your water supply comes entirely from a very deep aquifer that these seasonal differences are nullified, in this case the water supply is very unlikely to contain many pollutants at any time of year due to the filtering effect of the rock layers leading to the aquifer and because it may be "fossil water", which entered the aquifer prior to large scale industrialisation.

    cheers Darrel
     

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