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Open Book

Here is a close up of the HC. The camera and lights make it look greener than what it is! As always please excuse the shoddy camera work!

HC2_16.jpg


HC3_16.jpg
 
Here is a close up of the HC. The camera and lights make it look greener than what it is! As always please excuse the shoddy camera work!

My two cents... With pearling like that occurring I would imagine that your lights are still set too high. Your still very early on in the development and growth of this scape and while the plant mass is so low you really don't need high lighting. There's not really such a thing as a high light plant, but there are such things as high co2 requirements for plants. With you struggling to find balance I would drop the lights really low, better to grow plants slowly than kill them. I would also try to remove as much of the dead leaves as possible. Patience is key at this point, live with slower growth.
 
Hi Mr Hindley,

Thanks for you reply. I'm not convinced that is pearling, I think it is the co2 getting caught on the fissidens as it is like that most of the time the co2 is on. I have had the plants at light levels below 30% and down to 7% and had exactly the same issues with he plants melting. Today I got a ph drop of 1.5 between co2 on and lights on so I am happy co2 is ok, I also have two drop checkers which are next to the melting plants and they are yellow. I dose EI which should be 16ml but I dose 25ml so the thinking was that the lights were not bright enough as everything else appears to be ok......having said that I am happy to be told otherwise!


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Hi Mr Hindley,

Thanks for you reply. I'm not convinced that is pearling, I think it is the co2 getting caught on the fissidens as it is like that most of the time the co2 is on. I have had the plants at light levels below 30% and down to 7% and had exactly the same issues with he plants melting. Today I got a ph drop of 1.5 between co2 on and lights on so I am happy co2 is ok, I also have two drop checkers which are next to the melting plants and they are yellow. I dose EI which should be 16ml but I dose 25ml so the thinking was that the lights were not bright enough as everything else appears to be ok......having said that I am happy to be told otherwise!


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My advice would be, drop the lights, let the plants recover for a couple weeks at least.
 
Respectfully, I would have to disagree with MrHldley.

I believe the bubbles in the riccia/fissidens do not indicate pearling. They could be CO2 bubbles trapped, Oxygen bubbles trapped from a water change or even pearling that has accumulated throughout the days. Pearling is not an indication of any kind. However, looking at the foreground plants, they are growing upwards for light. furthermore, RossMartin's setup I believe has all covered in respect to CO2, Curculation and Nutrients. The only thing left is light. Plus taking into account George Farmer's setup where he had two of these lights on top of the exact same tank, I would say you are fine.

How far above the substrate is your light?
 
Hi Jaap,

The light is between 30cm - 38cm from the substrate. After a bit of reading of some other threads I dropped the lights from 90% to 65%. I have added more Repens, Helferi and some Monte Carlo.

I've also removed the sand and made it all ADA Amazonia this is where I have put the Monte Carlo.

I have dropped the amount of co2, I still get a 1 ph drop before lights on but I don't think I need to get to a 1.5 ph drop, I imagine I am wasting it at those levels.

I'll put some more photos up tomorrow!

Thanks

Ross


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Hi Ross,
That's a really nice scape mate. I guess more light hasn't solved your original problem, right? And now you have algae threatening to ruin the hard work. As usual, your first port of call should be investigating the possibility of a distribution problem, manifested on the slope containing the HC. If the geometry of your mound was such that climbed front to back across the tank length, the flow energy coming down the front pane would follow the slope and adhere to the substrate on its way to the back, but the shape you have disrupts the flow patterns as there is less resistance on the far left, so the energy has a tendency to squirt out to the left.

I also notice in the fist set of photos that there seemed to be some kind of pump mounted on the right side pointing to the left? If that's so it further exacerbates this potential problem and steals whatever remaining energy is needed to adhere to the substrate and to climb the mound.

I'm not suggesting that you dismantle the scape, only that you focus on trying to get flow energy to climb that hill so that it passes over the HC. You can have all the flow in the world but it does you no good if it doesn't get to the right places. That's why I always use the expression "flow/distribution".

So I reckon the first thing to do is to reduce your intensity so you only have to battle one problem instead of two problems.
Then, if that black box in the front is indeed a pump, then perhaps put it to better use and point it in a direction that actually helps the HC.
If the flow of the pump is too strong coming straight out of the nozzle, then move it back a bit or fabricate some kind of mini spraybar to spread the energy out a bit. A Koralia might have been a better choice, but again, it doesn't have to be pretty right now. It just has to be effective. You can figure out aesthetics later.

As a sanity check, have you tried visualizing the flow patterns? I might be wrong in my assessment, so take some of the dosing powders (the least soluble one, like trace powder) and drop some right at the very front glass to see where it spreads. If your distribution on the mound is good then you should see the powder particles drop down the front glass, hit the bottom and fan out over the HC along the mound's surface as they dissolve. If they do then we've got to keep searching for a different answer, but if the powders flow off to the left or right instead of climbing the hill then this indicates that's where your CO2 is going as well.

Cheers,
 
Hello Clyve,

If the geometry of your mound was such that climbed front to back across the tank length, the flow energy coming down the front pane would follow the slope and adhere to the substrate on its way to the back, but the shape you have disrupts the flow patterns as there is less resistance on the far left, so the energy has a tendency to squirt out to the left.

you know that I respect you and follow your every advice but I have to disagree with you here. The hardscape is very simple and if you see the videos above the flow is plenty as well as the CO2. Now the CO2 is more than enough but I don't know if its harmful a certain levels for the plants, have no idea.

Also consider that other people in the forum use this light including me and have it at a much higher intensity than 30%. I believe the melting is due to low light. Now 65% at that distance I believe its ok.

Obviously we have different opinions regarding this specific matter and I don't think it would be good to argue on the matter. The OP has two different opinions so we will not be to blame if everything goes wrong :)

Thanks
 
Hi Ceg,

Thanks for your kind word and advice.

Increasing the lighting certainly stopped the melt from continuing however a lot of HC, Repens and Helferi had suffered and died, so they were removed, but increasing the lights certainly did help. I read some posts that you had contributed on and was thinking of adding a 60 minute ramp up just so they are not getting hammered with the light from the word go...this would also give me a little leeway should i not get to a 1 PH drop before lights on. I caviat that as i always get a 1 ph drop by lights on.

The pump is a surface skimmer as i was getting the biofilm on the surface due to poor plant health. This only runs at night when CO2 is off, however i did do the test with the powder and the pump was blocking the CO2 from getting to the bottom right of the tank and was probably the cause of the Helferi melting there.

I also noticed (and probably didn't put 2 + 2 together before) but my stem plants at the back are looking very "leggy" at the bottom and ok at the top. The flow using the powder did show that the mound was blocking flow to the back of the tank.

What i plan to do is to add more substrate to the back of the tank to remove the mound and make it a complete slope front to back so the flow can travel better. Unfortunately i ran out of the substrate so i have ordered more and it will be here on monday. I will drop the lights some more until i get that in.

I really appreciate your feedback and taking the time to read the journal.

Thanks again

Ross
 
Hi Jaap,

I think taking advice from you and Ceg will fix the problems. I really do think i had the lights on too low and this was evident by the melt stopping as soon as i cranked them up! I think i was guilty of being afraid of turning them up too much but as you pointed out i did have enough co2 and Ferts! So you advice on adding more light and Ceg's advice on checking the flow i'm sure will get it going!

Thanks for your help on this. I will keep the journal updated!!

Thanks again

Ross
 
Hi Jaap,

I think taking advice from you and Ceg will fix the problems. I really do think i had the lights on too low and this was evident by the melt stopping as soon as i cranked them up! I think i was guilty of being afraid of turning them up too much but as you pointed out i did have enough co2 and Ferts! So you advice on adding more light and Ceg's advice on checking the flow i'm sure will get it going!

Thanks for your help on this. I will keep the journal updated!!

Thanks again

Ross
We want pics Ross

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Right so i added some more Amazonia to build the back up so there is no mound. You can see the bubbles folowing the substrate to the back. I'm going to get some Blyxa at the back as that always does well for me!

Front_16.jpg


Side_16.jpg
 
I don't think I've ever seen a tank with that much CO2 microbubbles before. It's quite a nice scape... spidery and triangle-y if that makes any sense. I'd stand on Jaap's side with this. I'm starting to think about deficiencies in a different way. If you have melting which points at deficiencies, then blast everything - lights, CO2, ferts, the whole kaboodle. Sensibly of course. Once you get algae, then it points to an imbalance somewhere which takes a bit more investigation. The issue is of course if algae gets out of control, then you'll spend the rest of your time just battling algae. Like a case of do or die.

Just my two cents, its probably an unpopular view these days.
 
I really like this scape, I look at the last photo and I can just imagine myself as a CPD or shrimp in there having a lot of fun all day long, so many placed to hide and slopes to play on.

As for the HC Cuba growing upwards... Had the same in my 120P, it looked like the carped wanted to "lift", I kept the co2, ferts and photo period the same, but dropped the light as close to the water or plants as possible and within 2 weeks my carpet (HC Cuba) looked fantastic again making runners in all directions, algae also started to grow on the rocks by that time, so I raised the light slightly (+- 50mm) and problem was sorted with the algae and the carpet is still doing great.
 
Hi Flygja,

Yeah i'm really hammering the CO2 in the tank. It sounds like a can of Coke after it has just been opened, fizzing away! I do this for two reasons, one i have no livestock and two i can see the flow of the bubbles. I know i am going to have to reduce the amount i am injecting when i get some livestock in there. I did have my lights up to 90% and started getting some Algae so i dropped them back to 65%. I think this is about right.
 
Hi Jakkals,

You must have read my mind as i really want CPDs and shrimps in there!!!

The Cuba in the centre of the tank doesn't apper to be too happy, im thinking i might move some out in amongst the Monte Carlo to see how it does there. If it does well then i know it is something to do with the centre of the tank, maybe it is not getting enough CO2. I was thinking of adding some Cryptocoryne parva there as the conditions there might suit it better.
 
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Hi Jakkals,

You must have read my mind as i really want CPDs and shrimps in there!!!

The Cuba in the centre of the tank doesn't apper to be too happy, im thinking i might move some out in amongst the Monte Carlo to see how it does there. If it does well then i know it is something to do with the centre of the tank, maybe it is not getting enough CO2. I was thinking of adding some Cryptocoryne parva there as the conditions there might suit it better.

I have a friend here in my hometown that breeds the most amazing cpd's.
Unlike the imported ones from LFS they are not shy or skittish at all, healthy tankbred local stock. Amazing in my 60L tank...


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Using the L palustris as a benchmark, your lighting is lacking - it should be brilliant red & growing out of the tank by now!
(I'm reading tank height as 30cm)

Flow should not be an issue - you've got a 1400l/h filter on a 60 x 45 x 30cm tank with not much hardscape or plant density (sounds like you've made some adjustments you're happy with)

What's your water change schedule? - as long as significant melt (or algae etc) is occurring, continue with frequent 50% water changes.

I don't know how you're dosing the fertilizers (daily, weekly, only with water changes etc), but I'd be surprised at that small plant mass consuming anywhere near the EI amount, never mind the excess you're adding, especially given all the new ADA soil & substrate additives

I also add a double dosage of EasyCarbo each day
:confused:
You've spent close on 6 weeks overdosing nutrients etc, why not try going a bit leaner on all these additives - at least stop the excess :)

Tank is going to be amazing once you get these startup hiccups sorted
 
Hi Ross
Get a little propagator....as per instructions from Andy!
http://ukaps.org/forum/threads/andys-hc-propagator-step-by-step.28930/
I will send you some Monte Carlo sprigs to get started......fatten them up and replant into the aquarium!
You will have far better success with the Monte!
hoggie


That would be awesome, thank you very much Hoggie.

I already have a heated propagator in the garage so will go and get some compost. What is best for lighting at this time of year?

More than happy to pay for the sprigs so please let me know how much!

Many Thanks again

Ross
 
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